Imposter Syndrome in Leadership: The Story of A Fraud (LCPS01E04)
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Episode Summary
“There's way more variability in people than a Python environment.”—Many leaders (myself included) have felt it: “Everyone has it all figured out, but I don’t”, also known as Imposter Syndrome. And you may have been told (unironically) at some point to “be more confident”, “fake it ‘til you make it”, or “better to ask for forgiveness than for permission.”
Working in tech, we’re in a fast-changing space where confidence is currency. And the gnawing self-doubt that’s often described as Imposter Syndrome doesn’t exactly come out of nowhere.
In this episode, we unpack it—all of it:
What imposter syndrome is, and why it, ironically, is a fraud.
My guest, an experienced engineering director, shares his experience with it, how his imposter syndrome shape-shifted going from engineer to manager, and how he’s dealt with it. We talk about the role of trust and vulnerability, community, and handling the unknowns.
I share my own experience with imposter syndrome, and get into
How our industry makeup and leadership idea(l)s fuel imposter syndrome
Practical tips for dealing with it
How you can use your own role to create an industry where we talk less about “imposter syndrome”, and more about overcoming overconfident incompetence
Chapters
00:00 Imposter syndrome: An introduction to feeling like a fraud
06:49 My conversation with Scott: How his imposter syndrome shape-shifted going from engineer to manager
12:31 What it means to be a good boss, and why that’s such a big driver for self-doubt
24:10 Understanding & Handling Imposter Syndrome as a leader,
49:52 Why “Imposter Syndrome” is a fraud
57:24 How to handle it, and build better organizations that
01:03:36 Our responsibility to shape and redefine Leadership: Thoughtfulness, Consideration, and Care, instead of a “confidence game”
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We want to hear from you! Email us with feedback, questions, or topic ideas; I can't promise we'll always respond, but I can promise we read every email! At pod@lenareinhard.com.
Full Episode Transcript
Scott: Sometimes it feels like the skills at the next level are not something that I get to do at this level with, like, training wheels on, so to speak. Sometimes it feels like you just, you go to the next level and it's, no, you're, like, In the like Superbowl, but in a totally different sport than what you trained at the lower level or at the Olympics in a totally different event. And I think that throws, I feel like that kind of throws me off. It's like seeing that and yeah. Feeling like I'm not prepared for that next level because I'm not like training in that sport right now. I'm like in playing a different sport.
Lena: Could you beat a lion in a fight?
Maybe you immediately thought, heck no. According to a 2021 study, 92 percent of Americans would agree with you. 8 percent though said, absolutely, I could beat a lion in a fight. Now my question is, those 92 percent who said they couldn't do it, maybe they're just not confident enough.
Maybe they don't trust their expertise. And shouldn't we just admire those 8 percent who proudly said that they could do it? After all, they're confident as heck. This is Leadership Confidential with Lena Reinhardt. Real talk on more than two hard things in technology, finding community, and becoming the engineering leader you can be.
Today, we talk about feeling like a fraud in a line of work where confidence is currency, and why imposter syndrome itself is, actually, fraud. An imposter. Before my first job at a startup, I'd had to wear business suits to work every day. When you look at photos of me at the time, you can see my clothing style changed really fast and really drastically.
All of a sudden, I wore hoodies, baggy jeans, and sneakers. I only realized this over a decade later, but I had started dressing exactly like every one of the people I was working with. And it makes sense. I was new to tech, I didn't know the people I was working with, and I was trying really hard to fit in.
Even though I hated that whenever I put on a hoodie, I felt like I was trapped inside until I could finally breathe again. It's been a long time since then, and I'm not wearing hoodies anymore. In life and leadership, we all go differently about making decisions and taking action. Somewhere on a spectrum between immediately moving into action mode on everything, consequences be damned, and, on the opposite side, getting stuck on trying to find perfect solutions.
All of us also have different ways of thinking about how we view ourselves, how we view others, how others impressions of us are reflected back at us, and what we do with this information. Maybe you've thought it too at some point. Everyone knows what they're doing, but I don't. Everyone has it all figured out.
Everyone else is so confident, and one day they will all find out that I am a fraud.
That's often described as imposter syndrome. And if this sounded like you, You'd be in good company. Einstein had it, or versions of it. Maya Angelou did too. And so did Daniel Kwan, co director of Everything Everywhere at Once that got an Academy Award.
Imposter syndrome is one of those words and concepts like self care, burnout, or psychological safety. They all came from real psychological backgrounds and are important ideas and concepts, but they've also been through the LinkedIn pressure washer for many years. And every time they took another round the block, they lost shape to the point that they've become hard to recognize.
I will say, I thought I knew quite a lot about this topic, but I've learned a lot about imposter syndrome as I've been preparing for this episode. And I'll share with you a bunch of it after my conversation with my guest. A very brief overview already to introduce you to the topic. Imposter syndrome was first described in 1978 by two psychologists, Suzanne Imes and Pauline Rose Clance, both PhDs, as an observation first among successful women.
It's also worth noting that it was initially described as imposter phenomenon, and that's what it's still called in most of the academic literature. But we will usually use the term imposter syndrome in this episode today, and I'll get to why later. The characteristics of imposter phenomenon or syndrome can be distinguished by around six characteristics, like the imposter cycle, the fear of failure, or the denial of ability.
A meta study that was done recently on 62 studies of over 14, 000 participants found that imposter syndrome is, well, somewhat between quite rare to quite common. The prevalence rates varied from 9 to 82 percent, depending on the study design. But
imposter syndrome appears in people of different genders across a range of age groups, but it's particularly high among ethnic minority groups.
People who experience it often also have depression and anxiety. It's also worth mentioning here that imposter syndrome is not a medical diagnosis. There are also no published studies that have evaluated treatments for these symptoms or syndromes or conditions. And that is all the background I'm going to give you on imposter syndrome first, because I'm really excited to share with you the experience that Scott, my guest today, is talking about.
Scott isn't his real name, but what we'll be calling him in this episode. He's been in engineering roles for nearly 15 years, with the last seven in management, most of this at startups. He's currently a director of engineering at a scale up division of a public tech company. The company's doubled engineering headcount in the last year, after coming out of a period of high turnover.
This change has brought some interesting challenges for him, and most recently he's been dealing with imposter syndrome. Which is what we're talking about today. Scott and I talk about the differences in his experience in imposter syndrome as an engineer versus a manager, what it actually means to be a good boss, how to figure out the unknowns in leadership and deal with the ambiguity that's inherent to it, how to build trust and avoid facades and build connection and community.
I'm very excited to share with you now, real talk on more than two hard things in technology with Scott.
Lena: So I heard that you want to talk about imposter syndrome today. Tell me more about that.
Scott: Um, yeah, I think all throughout my career as an engineer, certainly it's something that comes up. Yeah. And I think most of the conversations were always about, you know, as an IC, how it comes up, especially if you don't come from the exact right particular background, you don't have to like, go like see us degree or you can get a Stanford or whatever it is for whatever group or industry you're in, feel like you're stuck on the outside and don't know what you're doing.
And for some reason, I guess I thought that would go away. Living into management, I was probably, uh, now I know I was mistaken, but it feels very different because like for me, imposter syndrome was like, Oh, I don't know, I can't recite my data structures and algorithms and as well as someone else. You know, or something like that.
Or I don't, I've never heard of that framework or whatever it is. It feels like something just simply to know, and then you apply it and, or maybe some things you like feel shamed as you're like on stack overflow, looking up something and you feel like, Oh, I shouldn't have to look that up. Should I? Um, but then I think it also, it feels more like isolated as an IC.
It's okay. It's about me and my work and my knowledge. And it's. my output and that sort of thing, but in management, like it's people and it's a team or many teams. And it feels like the margin for error just goes away because it's people. And so it's something I think I've been struggling with is the how to, if you look at Ratchet up the intensity, I'm imposter sitting here, I was like, Oh, I don't know how to handle that situation.
Or I guess the other thing too, is like thinking back as an ICA, I gave the example of looking something up on like stack overflow, or maybe that face view. Maybe I should say that having chat GPT writes on the fourth, um, maybe that'll land better with the kids, but you can do that versus if you're having like a real tough conversation with a person on your team and you don't know how to handle that in that moment.
You've got to do something. You can't just like, gawk out of Zoom, or whatever, or like, stake that your internet went out or something. Do you know, read a book real quick and then come back. And, yes, I, I think that's kind of where I start with like, the difference in how it feels going from I see the man.
Lena: And I really love the way that you just described that difference. You've been a leader for a while now. I want to ask a bit about that first, you know, like in your time as a leader, has it changed in any way, the syndrome you're feeling?
Scott: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think similar to the more, you know, and like understand the things, you know, and the things that you don't know. And also you just get repetitions under your belt and you see more things over time, for better or worse. As a manager, you'll see every part of the human condition and every sort of situation humans can get themselves into shows up eventually.
And so one way or another, you're confronted with All kinds of different situations and one way or another, you have to figure it out. Cause that's the job, but sometimes you come in prepared and sometimes you're like, wow, I would do that differently if that happened again. And yeah. And I think also the variability in the role of management across companies and what, what.
You know, uh, especially a title like engineering manager that you get into the whole debate of, are you a hands on manager? Do you still commit code or are you purely people manager or that sort of thing, let alone like going up the ranks to like director and whatnot. But, and I think there's less variability if you look at, yeah, I mean, there's different levels.
Some places may or may not have like staff or principal level, or maybe it's all just seeing your engineer. Whatever it is, but there's some very advanced, knowledgeable engineer level. And like, the things that are expected of you, things that you'll do are, feels like a little more finite, there's still variability, but it doesn't feel like the range of what I think shows up for management jobs.
I think I experienced that in the past when interviewing and just talking to different companies and you got to go beyond the title, figure out, okay, what kind of. When you say interviewing manager, you actually mean like super tech lead and there's no people management or oh, you actually mean this is a team of 100 people that you're first line managing.
That's like the whole range out there and therefore like the expectations are wildly different and you kind of don't know what you're stepping into sometimes. Yeah, I think that makes it tough too.
Lena: I've heard from you like a bunch of things that are still at least making this kind of work uncertain, low clarity on roles or the human condition and a lot being about having to show up on the spot in the moment and not necessarily, you know, either always having prior experience or having all the answers.
But what I'm curious about is like, what's the imposter syndrome in that for you? Because a lot of it is like uncertainty of the role. And I, I absolutely, you know, see how that's not exactly a super table hanging factor. I'm curious, how do you define it for yourself? Actually,
Scott: Yeah, I think it's a gap between my expectations for myself. Which I like self evaluate to be rather high. And then how I evaluate myself as I actually perform day to day. And that, I also think it's like a little bit of the like mythos of the leader and the Hollywood version of what is a manager? What is a leader?
Of course, there's also, like, the, like, incompetent Hollywood version of the leader, right? You've got, like, the office,
you know, on one
Lena: you're thinking of.
Scott: Yeah, I should clarify. I should clarify. I'm not trying to Yeah, I should clarify which standard I'm holding myself to. Um They're kind of the movie version of like the perfect leader that rallies the troops and oftentimes it is a big military movie is the classic example you've got the general or whoever that marches out and gives a speech or the like sports movie the coach walks into the locker room at halftime and gives the talk and then everyone like, so yeah, everything clicks and everyone turns it around and goes out and watches that new feature under the website or that sort of thing so I think, Real leadership or real management feels like the like B roll of all those movies because it's like all the things that are a little too boring to actually show like 99 percent of it is like just dealing with all kinds of situations that aren't as exciting but are super important I think you find yourselves in a lot of situations.
I mean, I'm indexing towards the, like, people side, I think, but you have so many conversations with people where it's like, this could be the, like, the most important thing for them work wise, maybe even in their life, right now. Like, something they're going through, or a promotion, or coming into a new job, or whatever it is, like, and it's, I guess I don't take the responsibility lightweight.
Because I think you just have an outsized influence for better or worse, um, a whole group of people and so yeah I guess the the imposter syndrome is that like I guess it's the same is that you think everyone else has it figured out And but certainly at least some people do but or at least to some extent
the yeah I think it's yeah Maybe of sorts of the the fact no one's got it all figured out and then some people have some aspects of it figured out or enough for whatever role they're in.
But yeah, I think that's, that's just where, I think the recurring theme for me is just like additional pressure and additional responsibility and higher visibility and more, just like bigger strategic thinking. You're in more meetings where strategy is figured out or important decisions are made. Maybe you're hiring or laying people off or whatever.
And those are tough things. And yeah, I feel a pressure to, uh, to get them right.
Lena: you mentioned earlier, there is a low or small margin of error because dealing with people, I imagine that's not exactly decreasing the pressure you're feeling and the responsibility if there's not a lot of room for doing things wrong. The other bit though, that I was curious about is, you know, you also talked a lot about your transition into this role.
When you became a manager or throughout your career as a manager so far, have you had, what's your support looked like? Have you had trainings or how have you, was a lot of that self taught? You also talked about Having to rely on experience a lot. It's like, what's that been like for you? How did you upskill to these responsibilities?
Scott: Yeah. I think, unfortunately, like most people, you just become a manager one day. That was my experience of the, that was just, you just kind of wake up with the new title and new responsibilities. And, um,
Lena: that change though?
Scott: I did. I did. Yeah, which is a key point. Some people certainly get it thrust upon them, and it was something that I was actively seeking out.
So, it wasn't, like, surprising that I woke up that day, but it was still different. And I've been thinking about it. Technically, I do have, like, undergraduate degree is in management. Technically, I guess I am a professionally trained manager. It doesn't feel like that prepared me for what it's actually like, but in some ways, I guess that is, I suppose, an advantage.
I do draw things from there, certainly still, but it was just looking around and having fun. the experience of just having managers and being like, what do I think people did? And what didn't I like? And I think when I thought about, okay, I, I purposely want to become a manager. I started taking notes to myself of, Oh, if I was a manager in this situation, I were to handle that.
differently or the same and just like purposely noting those things to put myself into the shoes of someone else with, obviously without all their context or read part of it, just think through what I might do. I started reading a lot of books and blogs and just tried to soak up the knowledge that was out there.
Obviously people have been supervising other people for a long time and trying to make them. Yeah, happier and more productive and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, there is some science behind it It's not just some sort of like dark art. Although sometimes it seems like it but yeah for me It was just trying to soak all that up.
And then I think Yeah, part of it was it's like you read through so many things But then you may not be in the situations where you get to apply it like All the time. There's something where like, as an IC, if you're like, Oh, I've never worked with this technology or something, right? I'll go, let's go to a side project.
It's not really like a management side project where you like, you like get your friends together on the weekend and pretend you have to fire someone or something. Like, no one does that. That's the thing. it's, though, it's, but you know, like, I think that's some other differences. You can't, like, it's hard to try it out.
And yeah, there's certainly trainings and, Where there's even more like role playing and that sort of thing, but it's also different. So, yeah, it was just learning by osmosis, and books, and podcasts, and that sort of thing. I'm just trying to steep myself in what are all the different ways people have thought about this.
Which itself becomes a little bit overwhelming because there's, there's So many strong opinions in this space of what you shouldn't do and like, how am I going to describe my style? And what if that is the exact wrong style that someone else thinks should exist in the world? Am I a servant leader or is that a bad word?
Or is, yeah, it just goes on and on and on. I guess all that is to say, like, that, that is like me trying to shape myself into others expectations when really, I think, I guess if I've learned anything thus far, it's like showing up authentically is the start, and then if that happens to be described by some word that other people know as a leadership style, then great, and if not, then that's fine.
But it's taken a while to become comfortable with that. That certainly wasn't where I started. But even still, it makes you second guess. Because like, wait a minute. There's just these four descriptors of types of leaders. What if I don't fit into one of those? Does that mean I'm not a good leader?
Lena: Which four types of leaders do you think of actually? I actually mean this question,
Scott: Uh, yeah, yeah. I don't know if I actually had f. I mean, certainly, I think in Mosaic Ice now, it's certainly like servant leadership. And That's the one that like comes up and that I think I like the last time I was looking for a job a couple years ago, I did a lot of interviews and that was like, I would ask the person that like would be my boss, like how they described their leadership style.
And if they named any particular style, that was the one that they always named. And I think that was probably just the, the only descriptive one that people knew. Yeah.
Lena: I will say I did obviously Google this on the side and I kid you not, even the first page of Google results quotes, I think about at least six different ways of wording the four styles of leadership from things that you're supporting, coaching, delegating, directing, autocratic, democratic, laissez faire, and paternalistic.
I think like directionally, those may have some things in common, but. I think, and even on the same first page of Google results, there's also the most like six leadership styles that you should be considering. So I feel like that goes very much to your point earlier. It was like, there aren't a lot of common verbiages and I'm sure there are some institute out there that's put out a, the only leadership style you should really aspire to, or the one of the two you have to decide on.
Yeah. Very disorienting.
Scott: Yeah. No, I think, yeah, serving leadership, like more of a coach mentality, which like, I don't know. I feel like some people would or wouldn't qualify that as like a proper, you know, thing. leadership style as opposed to an aspect of leadership, but that's a debate for another episode, probably. Um, but, uh, and then I think there's like the classic sort of like militaristic, like command control, top down, just like more rigid.
Style, which I hear about it showing up in like corporate America. I renown men, but I think outside of like the actual military or places where it's like actually applicable, I think that's gone by the wayside.
Lena: Yeah, I will say, unfortunately, I did entirely a coincidence, but I spoke with someone five hours ago who is working in a company where pretty high up leader is operating exactly this way. And like, to the point that this person's bosses are afraid of him and there's no one who dares to report this to HR or anything like that.
It's pretty bad. That is, of course, a very extreme example that person, you know, yells in meetings and things like that. I'm afraid that those kinds of things are still much more common than I wish they were. For anyone who's listening to this and has someone you're working with who's like this, that's not normal.
Scott: Yeah. So I guess that actually brings you back to like the imposter syndrome. It was like, that's people would describe that as, okay, that's a bad boss. Like most people would probably feel that way. And I think at the There's like a part of me, like any other social human that, like, wants to be thought of as a good boss.
And then, what does that mean, and can that even be abstracted? Or is it a very personal thing, in the way that I show up for, you know, Each individual person versus just like in general, or I don't know, just, I like self doubt because I know that, I guess I keep coming back to like how bad a bad boss can be for the person you were describing.
That sounds like a terrible situation and they may not have the privilege to be able to switch shops easily. They could be totally stuck for a million reasons. And that feels terrible. So I guess putting myself in the shoes of like, knowing that making the wrong choices, or doing or saying the wrong thing, setting the wrong tone, or whatever could have that effect on the people that I supervise, feels like a lot.
It's just a lot of responsibility.
Lena: So what does it mean to you to be a good boss? You already mentioned something along the lines in terms of like how you show up for people with your high standards.
Scott: Yeah, I think it definitely starts with welcoming and trust, which isn't just something you just like get, right? You don't just like, a new person shows up on a team like, Hey! Now we totally trust each other. We're best friends. Let's
Lena: I'm a manager. Yeah, I agree.
Scott: exactly. Yeah. Trust me, I, I don't, yeah. Yeah. I, rich is ironic because I actually do make a point of showing up and telling people that I trust them from the start as a way to sort of make that inroad.
Like I just, I explicitly tell people that you're not. on this pathway to, like, have to earn my trust. You have it. You're here. I don't want you to think that you have to, like, perform for three months and then I'll, like, finally trust you and open up about all the things, like, who's got that kind of time?
Lena: good way to put it.
Scott: Yeah, the more I thought about it, I was like, yes, I'll get burned every now and then, and I have in my career by trusting up front and then finding out, like, oh, actually this. This prince is not working out, which I guess could be argued as maybe doesn't lead directly to trust. You could trust someone and they could also not be the right person for the role.
But yeah, I just think sometimes I'm not into performative and it's like, I hired you. Like, I trust you. Let's get in here, roll up our sleeves and get to work. I don't want to dance around this for three months.
Lena: like a
test.
Scott: yeah, let's just dive in and do it and go from there and just try to be authentic and as open and honest as I can be with people because I think that's if I want that to be reciprocated.
I think someone has to make the first move and show some vulnerability, a log. And so I also try to make a point of that, of sometimes I'll write out a post to the team of if I went through a particular thing to where I felt just exposed like my own self doubt, but try to weave it into a little story of how it worked out and just to, you know, I'm not, I'm not perfect up here on the pedestal.
We're all learning, trying, and we wake up and try to do our best. Uh,
Lena: have an example of that where you shared something like this that you want to share?
Scott: yeah, so basically my team was dealing with like a very high visibility technical failure in our systems that was causing like a very kind of like a marquee part of our like client facing site to not perform. And I had been out in front leading The like communication around the incident of response and keep people updated hour to hour, day to day as it ended up dragging on for a while and it felt, it felt like a big failure because it was just, it's a highly visible thing that was high to severity thing, but it wasn't something that we weren't able to just do.
correct it very quickly. It's really tough to have a super high severity thing happen and not, you know, oftentimes those things are like, Oh, we got to roll this, this like hawk fix out or something like that. It's like that one minor thing needed tweaked versus like kind of the. That this was more of an old rusty part of infrastructure that had been failing silently.
And it was an old rusted bridge that finally too heavy of a car drove over one day and the whole thing went out. And there was an offsite that I was going to where a bunch of like senior management was going to be there. That was, it was like our entire client facing team. This, we happened to be in town.
And I was like, I'm going to. It, it, I, I remember getting to the place we were going and I was like walking into the venue with one of our senior vice presidents and I was talking to them and I was like, I, in the back of my mind, I was like, I just, now I'm just getting to get totally ripped on this. And they were pretty chill about it.
Wasn't it for like, they were like, yeah, it happens. Like you're clearly on top of it. We trust you. You've got it. Get it back together. Let's get it back to working. Well, you've got it. And I had so much anxiety going into that, you know, part of it being, yeah, like in a remote role you just can't, you don't know what other people are thinking.
But I went back and told that story to my team because I knew that they, they were feeling my stress, responding to a sense of that. And so I want to tell them, hey, like, this is a big deal, but like, with the way we're showing up, people see it, and they get that's like, but best can be done. Right now? And they can see that we're like on top of it and trying things and working through some tough things and we should just remember that we're working with reasonable humans on the other side here.
It's, yeah, it's important but people are being reasonable and fair about it and it's really easy to build up that sort of oppositional monster in your mind. And you think that you're going to walk into a meeting or, I think, especially in person, going from the virtual world into the physical world was a big part of it for me.
I was
Lena: expecting like a fistfight confrontation or
Scott: yeah, basically, yeah, until I get a lock off. And so, so just get a punch for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was definitely like what, yeah, what I built up in my mind, but that wasn't actually what was happening. And yeah, I don't know if you, I don't know if you, well, you didn't cause you didn't know where the story was going.
But I feel like this led me to a place of coming back to imposter syndrome is like how much of it is that at that exact situation of you build something up in your mind and it's tough cause there's not that like exactly that like real world thing. I think the closest for me has been either going to management trainings or like coaching sessions like what we've done in the past where.
You talk to someone and they're like, yeah, uh, you're the sixth person that said that today. And it's like, oh, I'm not alone. Everyone's struggling with this. Everyone does struggle with this, up and down the ladder, it doesn't matter what your title or role is, and yeah, I think that's, to me that's been like the closest reminder of like, yeah, everyone's figuring it out, and here's some tools to figure it out a little bit more.
Lena: Mm hmm. And I think that part, honestly, to me, so interesting, especially in contrast with how you talked about your imposter syndrome in an IC role around where like the knowledge and skills and all that as an IC, like so much hinges on again, knowledge and skills, whereas so much in leadership honestly hinges on ultimately.
the skills to figure out the unknown. So not basically not trying to know all the things and do all the things, but being able to handle not knowing and have tools to break down that uncertainty and gradually maybe also remove some of it, but to handle the fact that you can't control everything a hundred percent, where so much of Work as an IC is basically on ruling out error and, and removing those, whereas in these leadership roles, you know, so much of what you've just shared is basically about never knowing a hundred percent what's going to happen and trusting that you have the tools, confidence, ability to figure it out anyway,
Scott: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a, yeah, it's a really good point of how I think to, and, and management, it's more, um, I feel like falling back on everything. Ways of thinking, frameworks, that sort of thing of, okay, we're in a, a tough situation, how we pause and break this down and, you know, try to get to the root of what we're actually talking about here, break down this project or get something back on track for delivery.
Or what's our process for thinking about long term strategy, how we break it down. Yeah. Like he can't. Sometimes you do walk into those rooms doing it. Everyone has to do it for the first time at some point, but there's a lot of ways to, like, you don't just invent an entirely new process, like every time you plan a new Florida or something.
That would be,
Lena: please
Scott: for anyone who's listening it being like, we do I'll,
Scott: It's going to say,
Scott: yeah, yeah. Like I'm sure there's someone out there who's dealing with that. Every time I think there's no one doing something, it's like I have to remind
myself. It's like just like.
Lena: again,
Scott: Yeah, but there's always someone just there's, yeah, but there's always someone that's struggling with the same problem that you have, as well as there's someone who's doing the thing that you think no one's doing.
So the whole breadth of. experiences happening out there.
Lena: But I think the call out is really great in that, like, the one part is like knowing how to figure out the unknown and the other part is also, you mentioned processes, same as in the sense of an organizational structure, leaders and just generally people in place who can figure things out. And so Again, for people who have the knowledge that is then needed to be applied, and there is so much that's again, less about all the knowledge and tools you possess yourself, but in, and to your point about trust and being able to trust these systems, processes, people around you to ultimately help you solve the problems that are ahead. And that is a big thing to not just be able to do that. All by yourself.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. It actually reminds me of, as an IC, I remember talking with a mentor and I was fixated on how do I learn the ins and outs of every data structure and algorithm, all that kind of like. Leak code sort of stuff. And they were like, I won't learn all those specifics necessarily. Like you can pick those up, like when you need to apply them.
But they were like, go a level higher. Pick up the book, Design Patterns. And, so it's like the, what is it, the Gang of Four book, literally called just the, the design pattern. It's a tough read, let's be honest, I didn't read all that I jumped around as applicable, but it was a little bit of an unlock of, oh, you're solving a particular type of problem.
There's a particular problem. Changelog, there's a couple patterns you could apply to that that are broadly applicable just like well worn ways to solve a particular technical issue that you're up against. And yeah, I think there's something to that for management as well and stepping back and what are the broad strokes and the ways that you show up in any situation and be able to handle it in the best way you can.
Possible. I think the difference is design patterns in the code that implements them, runs on a more deterministic system, er, go computers, hence patterns of leadership. Perhaps my future book, I guess, uh,
um, um,
Lena: you here for the first
announcement today, Grace,
Scott: yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, runs on a less deterministic system humans, so the outcomes are a little bit different.
Lena: honestly, the very simple and yet highly effective formula that I come back to is understand anything that's, that's coming up. Try to understand as much about it as possible within what's there, you know, person in front of your business problem. whatever it is. The second is then defining success or goals or something that's shared to work towards.
And the third part is figuring out how you get there. And that is so exceptionally basic. I'm not going to offer that as a chapter for your book. I feel like you'll come up with smarter things, but I found that. in basically any situation that works quite well. Because a lot of people try to skip the first two steps and immediately jump to doing something because honestly that's our instinct in a lot of cases.
But I've realized that like really focusing hard on taking a couple steps back and looking at the big picture, but also trying to understand details and all of that, it helps a tremendous, like it goes a really long way. But yeah, I feel like there are things like
Scott: Yeah. Um,
Lena: that into like the four principles for, you know, any leadership situation or something like that, and then copyright it. I
Scott: So I think the, the one twist I went ahead to, to imposter syndrome is as the, I talk about varied management roles, like the same title by company, a company, but then it's like you get in a company as you move up through, through the ranks, I feel like the role changes sometimes.
Dramatically, like I'm thinking about as like a first line engineering manager, where do your focus is more on a particular team's output and performance. And that sort of thing versus director where you're managing managers, trying to get organizational goals achieved at a much broader focus, a lot more cross organizational things, maybe higher visibility, external, you know, Meetings of clients or whatnot going on, anything about C level or VP level or whatever, working with like boards of directors or fundraising or, you know, overall the company strategy and that sort of setting.
And I feel like the, that's very different that I think progressing from like junior engineer to like principal engineer, I think where it feels like the skills stack more on the IC. We're all where it's like the principal engineer is like doing like extremely like just like extremely good output and like more like architectural big picture thinking, but still like deep in the like technical stuff that's like built on the foundations of what they've done in the past and maybe I'm just missing a thread there on the management side.
Like it feels, uh, take on one extreme like presenting to a board of directors. And then on the other extreme, managing, like, Keen Velocity, as like a first line manager. Is there, like, a throughput, or a three line there, or is it really less of a stacking of skills and more of, I don't know, picking up adjacent skills as you go?
I don't know, that's something I think about too, is, yeah, if, it, sometimes it feels like the skills at the next level Are not something that I get to do at this level with like training wheels on so to speak Sometimes it feels like you just you go to the next level and it's no you're like In the like super bowl But in a totally different sport than what you trained at the lower level or at the olympics in a totally different event And I think that throws I feel like that kind of throws me off is like seeing matt and yeah Feeling like i'm not prepared for that next level because i'm not like training in that sport right now I'm like in playing a different sport You But I'm curious what you've seen over the years with people and if what I'm describing is, if there's any truth to it or if this is actually just like me believing a false narrative and playing into my own imposter syndrome.
Lena: would probably personally park the comparison to the IC track, just because honestly, a big part of it goes against the standards for what these roles look like. And what they are is just, they're just so all over the place. I would add that I actually don't think the difference between the ISD track at higher levels and higher level leadership roles, I think the difference isn't actually as stark in that oftentimes, honestly, a lot also just depends on the scope of the role and if you have a principal specialist engineer, they may just, you know, go off in their own direction.
direction and work on hyper specific technical projects. But the part that I don't feel or that I feel like I can generalize a bit is that so much at that level also just becomes about handling bigger and chunkier, gnarlier problems on the business or on the technical front. And to your question, My impression from like the working with people from like small startups, tech corporations that ultimately the biggest growth is in being able to handle uncertainty and ambiguity and change.
And to your wonderful example about managing delivery or velocity on a team as a line manager versus presenting to a board of directors. The, honestly, the underlying skill in both cases is that it's probably an uncertain situation, at least initially with a bunch of variables that you don't know, naming people, their incentives, their motivations, their goals, the way that they're going to behave and the way that they're going to communicate with you and then having to figure out how to get those people.
to shared understanding or to a place where they feel they can share their stuff is going on with them with you and then work together in some way in the interest of helping the company achieve its goals. And that might be a very abstract way of looking at it, but I think that's ultimately it. And that, of course.
Doesn't get simpler as you're moving up and the way that you're just, you mentioned earlier, so thinking more about the team as a line manager versus then having to consider the entire company and its strategy and the market and the industry and global politics. And so the scope of, and the context that you're going to be absorbing and very actively processing absolutely shifts.
And I don't want to pretend that's not a big task, but at the same time, the underlying. How do you approach this problem and what do you put in place to help you solve it? Ideally grows over time, but that's the big thing that it boils down to.
Scott: Yeah, I think one of my favorite things you said there was like dealing with ambiguity. And as I reflected on that, I was like, actually, that's Exactly what you do at the highest levels of either IC or management track is you just deal with increasing ambiguity and try to make some sort of sense from it.
I feel like it's something that I've experienced just as I've progressed in my career, like I think just the frequency in which I have people even just mentioned that literally they just say, I'm giving you an ambiguous thing. Because it's your job to figure out ambiguous things. Uh, you know, it's like, not like subtle anymore.
Lena: And your job even is ambiguous. Like we don't have a job description for you. Figure it out.
Scott: yeah, yeah, there, there might just be a thing that needs to be done. And you're the person to figure out how it gets done and who does it. And maybe even do the thing in some cases. Or rally other people in the company to actually do the thing. But yeah, that's the, yeah, yeah, it comes back to, like, just thinking on your feet.
Part of dealing with ambiguity is thinking on your feet. Often times you get a big ambiguous thing and you get to sit with it a little bit, figure it out and un pangle it, which I guess that comes back to processes and frameworks of breaking things down, learning what's at the root of things, how do you actually approach Thanks.
And how do you define of what the problem is and how you're going to actually solve it? Yes. Maybe there's more parallels there than I was thinking. I hope it is just increasing ambiguity as the, yeah, as the role in the level increases.
Lena: I honestly, I think the way you relate what you said to your team earlier, I thought was so great. Just like paraphrasing, but like, the people around us see the work that we are doing and the effort that we're putting in to show up to fix this issue. And to what you said earlier about the very small margin of error and how you feel so much responsibility and like doing right by people.
Yes, absolutely. But I also feel like if, you know, at least some of what you told your team there is also true for you and the people who you're working with and who are on your teams, like whether they are seeing the work that you're putting in there. Right.
Scott (Anonymized): the times I've been vulnerable around like, Hey, we're dealing with some management situation. I actually don't know how to deal with this either. Let's sit down and figure this out together. I know how to talk through problems and try to make sense of them the same way that if you gave me a sub ambiguous technical problems, we would sit down and figure it out or some ambiguous strategy issue or whatever.
And so if this is a people issue or. No, or if it is one of the other issues too, you'd sit down and figure out, let's understand our options. Let's think about, let's play this out into the future. Let's think about how this is going to be received by other people. Let's get, try to apply ourselves to this and figure out what our path forward is going to be.
And then I would actually start doing it because there's that impulse when people turn to you thinking that you should have an answer or should chime in on something. I feel like every part of my body wants to give them a clean answer in a moment. And I guess being able to take a step back and be like, now we, like, I don't know.
We're going to figure it out. You'll hear more from me or I'll be working with you when we do figure it out as we figure it out. But that's actually just where we're at. I'm not gonna make something up just to try to sound good in the moment. Because, like, people see through that. I think that's the other,
Lena: Yeah.
Scott: I guess that's the other thing, is like, you as a person know when you've seen through someone else's facade that they've put up, whether they were your boss or someone else.
And so, that's always in the back of my mind, being like, don't, like, people will see through if you try to gut that facade yourself. Not to mention, it just doesn't really lead to a productive place, either. I talked about trust earlier, not wanting to like, waste people's time, like, trying to earn each other's trust, just like weeding with trust.
And I think it's the same thing. I won't waste everyone's time pretending I have the answer, to then have to pretend for three months, and then come back three months later and be like, actually, we don't have the answer. Now we need to start. We just wasted a bunch of time. Let's just be honest, we don't have the answers, but we're all here to figure it out.
Lena: That is. Yeah. I love the way you just said that. I also recognize that we're vastly at the, I'm sorry about that. Do you have anything left that you want to share?
Scott: Yeah, I mean, I guess, I think, I don't know, for anyone listening who feels like they're wallowing in imposter syndrome, whether as an I. C. or a leader, especially as a leader and a manager, everyone else is also dealing with it, and someone else out there has the same problem you have. Also, someone else out there has a weirder problem than you have.
Find whatever the group is. Through where you can not just be reminded of that, but I think interact with people. Maybe it's a like Slack group. Maybe it's finding a coach. Maybe it's just like a pure meetup group, local, whatever, leaders who get lunch or something or. Whatever. Maybe it's within your organization, maybe it's outside of it, but whatever it is, find that support group, I think, to where you can plock through and hear about those things.
Even if you join a Slack group and just lurk. I certainly did that, and some leadership Slack groups that are just like, wow, like, everyone's really going through all the things. Um. And some of them are going through the same things I am, but it turns out that, yeah, people are dealing with all kinds of things, and I'm not, yeah, I'm not the only one who's gone through this thing.
Turns out some people have gone through it and have some recommendations or advice. Some people are there to help coach you through it and help you find some of your own solutions. And I think, you know, find the right things that, that work for you and how you learn and grow and whatever your preference is.
And yeah, dive into those things. Cause it's, To me, that's the only way through is that kind of, I think, kind to be too insular with just like reading a book and thinking about it in your own head. It helps, but it doesn't help nearly as much as I think talking to other people and realizing that, yeah, everyone deals with that.
Here's a few strategies for next time you're facing that and that's how you get a little bit better.
Why imposter syndrome is also an imposter
Lena: Remember when I promised that I'd share with you why imposter syndrome is an imposter itself? Here's why. The academic literature on this topic pretty much consistently still uses the term imposter phenomenon, which it also was first described with. Whereas self help books and other lay literature use the term imposter syndrome.
The background here is really interesting. It's from an article in the New Yorker by Leslie Jamison. I'll have it in the show notes. The study authors themselves talk about this. The popularization of this idea as a syndrome has distorted it. Imposter syndrome, first of all, is technically an incorrect term and conceptually very misleading.
A syndrome is a group of symptoms which consistently occur together. But phenomenon isn't a group of symptoms. It's not a medical diagnosis. Calling it imposter syndrome risks focusing on the internal issues and internal complications that someone is experiencing. Whereas a phenomenon is just an experience, not a pathology.
It's something neutral and not something broken that needs fixing. And that is why I will call it imposter phenomenon throughout the rest of the episode. And that is exactly the issue with the experience for us, especially for us in leadership roles. The experience of imposter phenomenon doesn't come out of nowhere.
Why imposter syndrome/Phenomenon is so common in engineering leadership
Women in male dominated professions report much higher rates of professional self doubt than those in more gender balanced environments. We saw earlier already that imposter phenomenon is predominantly experienced by people in ethnic minority groups, but other people experience it as well. And I think there are a couple of important factors to look at why that is in leadership roles and why it is so common.
First of all, there is what and who is even a leader, the patterns in who we view and treat as capable of leadership. This week I spoke with a senior manager who said, I might be something similar to an approximation of a leader, maybe? She's been in leadership roles for over 10 years. We all have preconceived notions about who gets to hold power, make mistakes, drive innovation, and take risks.
And all of those are connected to a lot of the messaging around leaderships. But there are no good standards for leadership. There are only ideas and ideals of what leadership means and what it means to be a good leader. Those ideas are, as Scott also alluded to, created by many factors, like Hollywood movies.
Think of Wolf of Wall Street, who defunded countless people of money. The media, like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos, used to be hyped as great leaders. Those images have gotten, well, a few scratches, let's say. Are presidents leaders? And then there's just you and me on a rainy day at the office. Those ideas and ideals get in the way big time.
Between country presidents are leaders and I'm just me, old me, calling oneself a leader can feel really weird. This also means that we're comparing ourselves to an impossible standard, an ideal that doesn't really exist in reality. That's an impossible bar. The second part is look at the industry that we're in.
The industry messaging is move fast and break things. Better ask for forgiveness than for permission. There's always a lot going on. It's really hard to keep up in tech. And then there's the 30 under 30 lists with all these people who've done so much in their life. Then there's the messaging and startups.
I quote from The New Republic, “every successful startup is in some sense, a confidence game. Any founder who told the literal truth about the frenzied ad hawkery of launching a company would scare away customers and investors and quickly be out of business.” There's also the leadership messaging, especially in tech.
Don't ask too many questions. Bias to action. Have a sense of urgency. Don't get into too many details. Be decisive. Thinking and planning is a waste of time. And most of all, fake it till you make it. The second bit is leadership in practice. Many leaders have really unclear, not well defined roles. That's often by design, where gap filling and gaffer taping is your job.
But that also makes it unclear what bar you're measured against, or what bar to hold yourself to. That also makes it hard to assess how you're doing as a leader. Many leaders run chronically low on feedback and unclear expectations. A lot of leadership issues also tend to be individualized. You may be one of the people, I'm definitely one of them, who've gotten negative performance evaluations that feature some form of synonym or euphemism for imposter syndrome.
Like, you lack confidence, or you lack executive presence, or you're not motivational or inspirational enough. I get a lot of questions from women and women of color regularly about how to be more assertive network without being categorized as aggressive or bossy. That is a very common bias towards women.
When I ask about context, it usually turns out they are the only or one of the very few women on the leadership team. They run highly homogenous teams of men and are struggling with being perceived as a leader are often cut off in conversations and are struggling to make themselves heard. At the same time, they don't want to be off putting.
They ask me for how to be more assertive. What organizations rarely talk about is how they can teach all members of their teams to be respectful of others during meetings and have productive conversations and disagreements. And there is the double bind that I just alluded to. Low confidence is interpreted as not being enough of a leader or not being leadership material.
Confidence, on the flip side, is viewed as aggression or being bossy, especially in people of color, women of color, namely, so, and women. So, we've talked about our ideas and ideals of what makes the leader and the leadership messaging, as well as leadership in practice. Lastly, there is also just the reality of our industry.
You may have heard of the Peter Principle. It's a book that came out in 1969. The whole idea and observation in there is that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to a level of respective incompetence. So people are promoted based on their success in the role they had until they reach a level at which they're no longer good.
So they don't get promoted onward. This whole pattern is really ripe in tech. We have a whole tradition of moving great engineers into management roles that they don't want and aren't qualified for and aren't getting training for. There are also, in addition to that, real representation issues. I personally have been the only woman on any engineering executive team I've ever worked on.
The anecdata doesn't matter, but all my bosses in my career were men. And while I've worked with a lot of men who wanted to be allies or cared about topics like diversity and inclusivity, many still had huge blind spots in their perspectives and judgment, which impacted how their own work, as well as the organization.
And we have real representation issues and issues in the makeup of our industry. Women make up less than a third of the world's tech related workforce. The number of women in leadership has been going back. Currently it's a 28%. Half of women in tech leadership roles leave them by age 35. If you're still around and older than that, I salute you.
I also would understand if you didn't, if you left, you have my solidarity. Of those who are currently in tech, 21 percent more women than men in tech leadership roles feel burned out. Leadership remains predominantly white. Studies also show that employees of color can still earn up to 30 percent less than their white counterparts for the same roles, regardless of performance, education, age, skill level, or gender.
In their article, Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome, that they wrote for HBR in 2021, Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi Ann Burey argue, Imposter syndrome directs our view toward fixing women at work instead of fixing the places where women work. And I think that's very true, even beyond gender.
That is why we need to talk less about imposter syndrome.
What we need to talk about instead is that this is a world in which people of color, women, and non binary people are still told to be as self confident as people whose co operating mode is faking it until they make it, and who often fail and create a lot of harm in the process. We need to talk about that this is an industry where too often thoughtfulness is still labelled as inaction, where casual yodel ness of overconfident megalomaniacs is glorified and unjustified bloated sense of self worth is king.
Accountability at the same time is missing. We need to stop judging leaders, including ourselves, for having level headed self assessment, thoughtfulness, and consideration for others and for the impact of our action. We also need to talk more about the breakage that moving fast and breaking things has contributed to, especially in tech, from legendary oversights like health apps being released without period tracking, to eroding democracy to literal genocides.
Right now, we're in the middle of this exact thing unfolding again, with dozens of AI companies pushing generative products using models. That they themselves don't understand fed on data that's not theirs, polluting the internet with garbage. We need to stop acting like the 92 percent of Americans who say they couldn't beat a lion in a fight are just not confident enough, when they're likely just sensible and aware of their limits, unlike the 8 percent that could.
And also, you can buy a spot on those 30 under 30 lists. We don't have an issue with imposter syndrome, we have an issue with overconfident incompetence. As leaders, especially the ones who may experience imposter syndrome ourselves, we need to redefine what leadership means. We need to reward thoughtfulness, consideration, and care.
We need to hold ourselves and others accountable. We need to look directly at the systems of bias rather than falsely pathologizing individuals. And we need to create environments where everyone can do their best work. We need to move from feelings about ourselves that make us small to feelings and action about the world around us and making this world a better place.
We need to ditch the pop cultural link denified version of imposter syndrome and look at the experiences that it entails. Imposter syndrome, all in all, is a part of being a human and a really critical sign for leaders. Leslie Jameson, who I mentioned earlier, wrote in the New Yorker, It names the gap that persists between the internal experiences of selfhood, multiple contradictory incoherence, striated with shame and desire, and the imperative to present a more coherent, composed, continuous self to the world.
And that's why I want to share with you a couple things that can help you [if you’re dealing with imposter syndrome, or know someone who does]
In this and the next episodes going forward, I will always share lessons learned from two angles. One, advice or recommendations for others dealing with a similar challenge, as well as anything for people whose reports may be dealing with this.
Because after all, a lot of leadership challenges we're impacted by as leaders are also issues that the people in our teams and organizations experience and may struggle with as well. I want to make space for both on this show because There are things that we struggle with, but at the same time, we also have a responsibility to do better by the people working with us.
So here's what you can do to try and find a balance and a mode that works for you. Disclaimer, as I mentioned earlier, there currently aren't scientifically backed treatments for imposter syndrome. However, I found things that helped, other people have found things that helped, and I want to share those with you.
The first thing you can do is understand your imposter syndrome and make it concrete. Reflect on questions like, describe your imposter syndrome. I feel Uncertain, unclear, not sure where I stand, how I'm doing. Describe what it is. Dive into the specifics. What makes you feel this way? Where does this feeling show up?
Think about people, behaviors, or situations and topics. Like, whenever your boss takes a long time to respond to your emails, or you're giving a presentation and there are no reactions. Understand what are the things that you just don't know. You imposter in a project you're working on just because it's an area that you're legitimately unfamiliar with.
Then, find patterns. What are Which aspects have you experienced in other workplaces as well? And decide on what you want to do about those situations. Come up with some ideas that help you validate or deal with your experience. Like with your boss, you could check with them what the best way to communicate is for urgent topics.
Or your presentation. Try a different format, ask other leaders, get feedback, or read some books about how to present well. You may not be able to solve every situation immediately or even at all, but it can be worth starting. Another thing that you can reflect on is to understand what is your imposter syndrome useful for and what is it showing you.
I firmly believe that many human experiences can help us understand something about ourselves. Your imposter syndrome may be a signal that you want to be thoughtful, that you care about reflecting on your ideas and actions and consider the impact. It also may help you use your power with care or can be a sign of things that you really just don't know.
It can also be a sign that you don't feel like you belong or you don't feel safe at work about speaking up. I don't want to turn this into like every bad thing also has a positive side to it, but as we've seen, imposter syndrome can have an important warning function. It can be useful to acknowledge that.
As a third point, know that sitting with a lot of uncertainty is part of your job. That is really uncomfortable for many of us because our brains aren't necessarily wired this way. I don't think you have to get comfortable with that, but at least knowing it can be really helpful. Then consider your environment.
Think about how it impacts you. The context that you're working in may leave more marks than you realize. Are you in an organization that fuels self doubt? Name it. Then, build your community. Because there is loneliness that comes with imposter syndrome, and community can help with that. It can also help you understand leadership work beyond the cliches and stereotypes.
So, talk to other leaders, but like, the real talk, not just the pressure washed LinkedIn version. Find people who you can validate ideas with, get real feedback, and who you can fail with. People who can literally show your messy drafts and first ideas to, and people who won't just tell you what you want to hear, but who will also not judge you.
Talk to mentors or a trusted person. And connect with your own accomplishments. Recognize your own skills, contributions, and impact. We'll soon have an episode on that as well. Acknowledge your wins and capabilities. Take time to celebrate them. Admit that you don't know everything, but write the things that you do know and that you've done down.
Keep an achievements list. It can be a really simple doc, notebook, gratitude, or success diary. But record your small wins, your small victories, and the big ones, and revisit it every week or month. Also keep positive feedback that you get. I have, again, a very simple document, it's called my rainy day dog, and it is, well, for a rainy day.
It consists of screenshots and notes of feedback that I've gotten over the years. And it's really nice to have. You can also seek additional help. If you feel your struggle with imposter phenomenon requires additional help, seek counseling, therapy, group sessions, or other resources that are available to you. What can you do if you work with people who experience imposter phenomenon? First of all, don't play into the, whoa, how can you not know this, game. The reason that many of us love working in the space that we're in, like working with people and software is because we really enjoy learning and are infinitely curious.
In both humans and tech, there's a lot to learn and it doesn't stop. There's just no way that you'll know everything there is to know at all times, even more when you work with people. There's just so much in human behavior that's so complex and influenced by a myriad of factors. It's an infinite puzzle.
The sooner you kind of embrace that, the sooner you can focus on how wonderful it is to be in a place where you can continue learning and improve your puzzling skills instead of trying to understand the solutions to all the puzzles that are out there. Second, don't label or diagnose others with imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon.
Remember, it's not a diagnosis and you're likely not a medical professional. Instead, focus on the specifics when you're coaching someone. What thoughts and feelings are they experiencing? Third, recognize leadership skills in others. Recognize that leadership skills take different shape in different people, and that's okay.
Actually, that's great. Don't buy into the leadership stereotypes and challenge others who buy into them. I've been in many performance reviews and calibrations, where people would get put forth for promotions with a very specific style of leadership. Typically, quite loud, quite extroverted, quite aggressive.
On the flip side, people would get overlooked to head a quieter, but at least equally effective leadership style. Speak up and challenge when you see biases like this. Also invite others in, pay attention to your words and actions. Set clear expectations with the people you work with and give them feedback regularly.
It goes a really long way. Save when you don't know something and own your mistakes. Encourage collaboration. Reassure the people that you're working with that working with others can benefit them by providing mutual support, professional development, and enriching the overall outcome. Help people practice confidence.
And in that spirit, I will say I did mess up the last part of wanting to use imposter phenomenon consistently as a term because I'm so used to imposter syndrome. So no matter what you do, the one best thing you can do is just don't become another incompetent, overconfident idiot. I will leave you with the words of my first guest, Max, who said, I don't have as much imposter syndrome anymore because by now I've seen enough people that code a mess.
I've been reflecting a lot on my own experience with imposter syndrome as I've been working on this episode.
I used to struggle with it a lot. I mentioned earlier the whole holy thing. But for some reason, magically, my imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon experience faded over time. I really didn't want to admit that because I still want to, you know, be seen as a humble person.
But it decreased. I don't know if it's gone entirely, and that's okay. I do think I still have a healthy portion of, well, sometimes self doubt, or at least introspection. I will also admit that it's taken me about eight weeks to get this episode done. One part was that I just really wanted to do this topic justice, because I know that a lot of people care about it, and some people struggle with it.
Another part, though, was that I felt like what I had put together so far wasn't good enough, and I kept pushing. Am I annoyed that things have taken this long? A little bit. At the same time I'm really glad that I listened to the quote unquote imposter syndrome, or at least doubts that I was experiencing, because I feel like the whole result is a lot better for it.
I would love to hear your feedback. Please email us at mail@leadershipconfidentialpodcast.com
Production notes & credits
Leadership Confidential was created, produced, and presented by me, Lena Reinhard. Our guest's voice was digitally modified. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Esteban del Pino. Production assistance, guest support, and social media by Sly Stark.
Thank you for listening. I'll hear you next time.
