Supporting Neurodivergent Employees: A Guide for Engineering Leaders (LCPS01E10)
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Episode Summary
"For me, it's not just sitting here and saying all the things that my employers have done wrong... I want to bring it here and say that managers don't always do it out of malice. It's great to be able to just be honest about it and actually bring out that experience a little bit... and for the neurodivergent people that listen, you're not as alone as you think."
What's it really like navigating the tech industry as a neurodivergent professional? How can engineering leaders create environments where neurodivergent team members can thrive instead of constantly masking and struggling against workplace norms?
In this episode, Lena speaks with Adya (not her real name), who shares her firsthand experiences as an autistic person with ADHD working in technology, including the barriers she's faced and the accommodations that have made a difference.
This conversation explores:
How neurodivergence manifests in workplace settings and affects communication, information processing, and task management
The harmful impact of performance feedback that criticizes neurodivergent traits instead of actual performance issues
The exhausting reality of "masking" to appear neurotypical in professional settings
Practical approaches to requesting and implementing effective workplace accommodations
Specific guidance for engineering leaders on creating truly inclusive environments
Whether you're a neurodivergent professional looking for validation or a leader wanting to better support your team members, this episode offers honest insights into creating workplaces that embrace neurodiversity as a strength rather than a deficiency to be "fixed."
Resources
LinkedIn post about communication feedback for autistic people
Manual of Me: Personal user guides for better working relationships
Neurodiversity Employment Survey: Adjustments Interim Report
Law Society: Reasonable Adjustments in Organizations - Best Practice for Disability Inclusion
Harvard Business Review: Stop Asking Neurodivergent People to Change the Way They Communicate
We want to hear from you! Email us with feedback, questions, or topic ideas; I can't promise we'll always respond, but I can promise we read every email! At pod@lenareinhard.com.
Full Episode Transcript
INTRO
Lena: This is Leadership Confidential with Lena Reinhardt. Real talk on more than two hard things in technology, finding community and becoming the engineering leader you can be.
Today, being in tech with autism and ADHD. In this episode, we talk about neurodivergence a lot, and I want to briefly introduce the term to you.
Neurodivergence is the term for people whose brains function differently in one or more ways than is considered standard or typical. And it's worth keeping in mind that things like quote unquote normal behaviors or quote unquote normal brain functions are very, very difficult terms. And there are many different ways that neurodivergence can manifest from very mild ways that some people would never notice to more obvious ways that lead to a person having different experiences than is What is considered quote unquote normal.
We'll look at some of those in the episode later today and some examples of neurodivergency can include Tourette's syndrome, synesthesia, dyscalculia, Down syndrome, epilepsy, but also chronic mental health issues. like obsessive compulsive disorder, OCD, anxiety, depression, as well as ADHD and autism. Many forms of neurodivergence are an innate part of how someone's brain functions and has also developed previously.
And many of those differences can go even unrecognized or undiagnosed in childhood. That doesn't mean that they were not there, that they were not real and only suddenly appeared later on. It's really important to call out as well that the diagnosis of neurodivergent traits and neurodivergency is very complicated.
It's not accessible to everyone. And it's also, again, because of how different symptoms show up, it's also really tricky as a process and as a concept. We do recognize the concept and validity of self diagnosis here. I find that really important. And that's also why I want to shout out though that It's really difficult to tell how many people have neurodivergencies in tech, because again, not everyone is diagnosed, not everyone has access to that, and not everyone's symptoms are recognized by diagnosis manuals that psychiatrists, for example, use.
So now let's get into it. And I do want to welcome back the wonderful Sly Stark, my assistant, and Co host of this. Welcome back, Sly.
Sly: Thank you for that. Warm welcome, Lena. You know, I may not know what scrum is, but this is one topic that I am very well versed in, so I'm happy to be here.
Lena: what makes you well versed in this topic?
Sly: Well, so I myself am neurodivergent. Like our guest today, I have ADHD. I am also autistic. And the clients that I work with in my business are all also neurodivergent. And so I have the So I have the privilege of being able to see how everyone presents differently and kind of see how everyone handles that themselves so that I can then take those real life, I don't want to say coping mechanisms, but just like those real life strategies that they use to, to deal with their New York divergence, and like share them with other clients who maybe need that kind of advice.
Lena: Just like me, for example.
Sly: Exactly.
Based on your observations, how common is neurodivergency in tech?
Lena: I will say, honestly, I wish I could answer that question with some stats, but there aren't really good ones in terms of like how common, how common it actually is. but my sense is that it is relatively common. There is a part where, just the type of work, especially for software engineers, has at least a. may attract some people who are neurodivergent, because there's a lot of, problem solving. There's also a lot of interesting and complex problems to solve. that's also interesting for non neurodivergent people. but I also honestly find it really hard to answer that question without leaning into stereotypes.
I think, um, Like TV shows, like, especially honestly, I was thinking of Big Bang Theory this morning, um, where I think like the character Sheldon is supposed to be autistic as far as I know. And that portrayal and depiction of an autistic person is just absolutely horrible. and I also think it's done a lot of like disservice to like neurodivergent people in tech.
but yeah, so I do think it's relatively good. Like it's not uncommon, there are also many people who are open about it. There are companies that have, you know, employee resource groups and other kind of communities for neurodivergent folks. but it's really difficult to really tell.
Sly: That's a valid answer. That's so valid. I was just curious, because I was like, it definitely feels like the type of work where, you know, People who are neurodivergent may accidentally just kind of find themselves in it because like you mentioned the challenges, but also the rapid pace of change, there's a certain amount of chaos that we all tend to gravitate towards accidentally sometimes.
So I thought that might also be a factor. Yeah.
Lena: I will say that's it's a really good call out and I do work with one client who also has ADHD and they worked in a really chaotic fast change environment. This honestly was quite toxic also and then change jobs at some point and are now in a really kind of, you know, quiet, very like slow moving company and it's been quite unsettling for them, even. I do think there is something about, again, thriving in chaos that, at least some of us with neurodivergencies, gravitate to a bit.
Sly: Yeah. Thank you for that answer. Okay. So my next question for you is when you were in a corporate position or just in your startup, did you ever manage neurodivergent people on your team?
Lena: Yes. Multiple in many different companies. and like you said earlier, I also want to admit there were some folks whom I suspected they might be neurodivergent in some ways. but, never got confirmed, but I worked with a lot of people also as peers, honestly, who have some neurodivergencies. Yeah.
Sly: Perfect. Okay, so, that said, looking back on your work history and before you knew you were neurodivergent, are there any instances that foreshadowed that to you?
Lena: That is a really good question that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. And, I honestly don't, don't think so, really. for me, sort of getting. Diagnosis. I'm, I have an ADHD diagnosis. I also suspect that I'm autistic as well, but don't have a formal diagnosis for that. Um, but I basically act as if I did in terms of, you know, coping mechanisms and all that.
Sly: hard to get a diagnosis for that, especially when you're not like the Sheldon presenting type, let's be honest here. So, it's totally valid to self diagnose, I do too, for autism, because it's like, for me, I'm like, it's pretty obvious to me, but you know,
Lena: And like, I, I guess I'm with you, fully in support of self diagnosis here. Um, that is valid and important. and so, yeah, there wasn't really foreshadowing, but, a big part for me was that, at some point, and that was unfortunately relatively late in my career. So I've been in the workplace for 20 years almost now.
And, I did at some point realize that I've spent a lot of my work life in what I now describe as brute force mode, where like things that were you know, seem to come easy to everyone around me. and things that, you know, everyone just seemed to be able to do, like felt incredibly hard for me. And like, one of my favorite examples is email.
I cannot, and I'm a, I'm an adult person. I'm like, I'm aging. I'm not, you know, young anymore. And I'm a professional, but I can't. I have not, for those 20 years of my career, I have not been able to figure out how to manage my fricking inbox. And I have tried so much various, you know, whatever, from Pomodoro technique to triaging and what not, I have not been able to figure it out.
And that realization was also what brought you and I together, among a couple of other things. But where I realized, I'm, I've been beating myself up about it as well, because, you know, it's like, of course, you should be able to do email and it's so, it's so simple. It's part of the whatever, you know, white collar
jobs at this point and whatnot.
Um, and I think the biggest part for me was realizing that I keep beating myself up about it, and I'm not able to fix it or get better at it. And I'm wasting so much time and energy, just being frustrated with myself
Sly: Yeah.
Lena: ended up asking myself the question with yeah, well, I can either, you know, continue doing this and continue trying this like brute force mode of just I have to make this work.
I have to somehow figure this out, or I can. try a different way than I've tried for almost 20 years. And that's when I ended up reaching out to you and saying, well, Sly, I need help. I cannot do this. I've been trying, but I can't figure it out. Help me.so yeah, in hindsight, so if you're not like looking at a lot of my professional experiences, I want to see life experience through lens effect.
diagnosis or through the lens of sort of symptoms of both ADHD and autism. Like,yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That is my, you know, a lot of it really matches my experience really closely,
but it's only really made sense in hindsight.
Sly: That totally makes sense. Yeah. That's usually how it goes. The hindsight is 20 20 and all that.
Lena: which is also an expression that I, didn't understand until a couple years ago. I always thought it was something about the year 2020 and like hindsight is 2020 because 2020 is the future and that's when we know things.I did, I did not know that 2020 is just perfect vision in America.
Sly: There's a lot of context that goes around that specific, what do you call that? What kind of language, uh, idioms? That's what it is.
Lena: idioms and expressions and yeah, yeah.
I will say there, there are a lot of
Sly: easy.
Lena: Yeah. And I will say that is another thing where I, in hindsight, my inability to parse those kinds of things or just, you know, taking them all verbatim, that too could have been a sign that I just missed. Cause if you don't know what you're looking for, yeah. and I think the whole, you know, like being late diagnosed and then navigating. That, as a professional, is also something that our guest today experienced. So I had a really good conversation with our guest Adya, Sly, would you introduce them to us?
Sly: Our guest this week is Adya. Adya is not her real name, but it's what we'll call her for this episode. Adya has worked in the tech industry for the last several years in various non technical roles.
Adya is also neurodivergent and her experiences have been influenced by this. Some of these experiences have been negative and harmful, which is unfortunately fairly common for neurodivergent people in tech. In this episode, she shares her lived experiences in order to educate leaders about neurodivergency, to show leaders how to properly support their neurodivergent peers and direct reports, and so that other neurodivergent people in tech feel less alone in the challenges they face every day.
Lena: And as a bonus, we also talk about what neurodivergency can mean and entail. So here's Leadership Confidential and real talk on more than two hard things with Adya.
MAIN
Lena: So let's start with who you are and how long you've been in the industry and anything else you want to share.
Adya: So I've worked in the tech industry for almost seven years now, not quite in hands on technical roles though. what I could share about my identity, as you may guess from the title of the podcast is that I am neurodivergent, to autistic and ADHD. And, I'm also a woman as well, which does feed into that experience and the experiences that I'm going to talk about later on.
Lena: you've already alluded to it. So what are you here to talk about?
Adya: I'm here to talk about neurodivergency in tech and through sharing some of my own lived experiences, I want to highlight potentially what's actually happened in those circumstances. The impact that it's perhaps had on me and also sharing some things that the technical leaders who are listening to this could potentially take away from it.
Because I know some of you who are listening are also neurodivergent yourselves. You might be experiencing this and you've almost certainly managed neurodivergent people in your teams too. So when it comes to actually supporting them, there might be things that, you know, are not malicious or intentional, but are perhaps impacting them in a way that you might not see, and they might not talk about.
And I know that you do the job you do because you care about people and you want to bring out the best in them. And that's what I hope to share with you in this podcast.
Lena: So we can all do better. I like that. and so I would, briefly like to start with the very basics of neurodivergency. How do you define it and what does neurodivergency mean to you?
Adya: Yes, well, textbook definition, I suppose, is always a good place to start with that, of course. So the textbook definition of neurodiversity refers to the infinite variations of the human brain. And so like, obviously, we've got like, you know, ethnic diversity, gender diversity, all of those sorts of things.
Just neurodiversity refers to how different all of our brains actually are. And then, like, there's basically neurodivergent and neurotypical, and they're sort of the opposite of each other. I don't know how I feel about that, though, because I feel like it does create a little bit of a divide, like, us and them.
Like, we're normal, you're not normal. But, unfortunately, these are the most widely accepted kind of terms for this. Neuro normativity explains, it's basically like a set of standards of how you should behave, how you should operate, how you should talk to people, how you should process information, how you should respond to things.
There's so many things that come under that. And I, And it says that there's a quote unquote proper way. I know you can't see this because it's audio, but I'm making air quotes. because there's no proper way to do all these things, but as a society, we've created these standards, and if you don't fall within those, you are weird, you are different, you're rude, incapable, or you're just like a rubbish friend.
The list goes on. They're not neurodivergent traits per se, but that's what separates it actually as well. There's this label as such that, okay, you're different, but it's also very medicalized and pathologized. But I want to, I want people to take away that it's ultimately like a spectrum of many other things.
And it's neurodivergencies about brains that work in various ways that may deviate from what society considers quote unquote normal. And also then it impacts the experiences that us people. who are neurodivergent, and our brains have impacts those kind of experiences.
Lena: And I'm curious if you're open to sharing it. Could you give a couple examples for how your neurodivergencies like your ADHD or the autism have shown up in your work in the past for you?
Adya: okay. I have to pick a few examples. Let me think about that one.
Yeah, I think one of the ways in which my neurodivergency shows up for me is like the information processing, particularly because again, The world's changed drastically over four years ago, the big C word. We won't talk about that one and not the other words you're thinking of perhaps. And you know, like hybrid working, remote working.
Asynchronous communication and so many different types of communication. It's overwhelming for a lot of people and being able to work well relies on processing information well, but a lot of the time, the way that I'm trying to take in information in a meeting, particularly if, you know, For example, just if I get momentarily distracted by something, or if there's a lot of different sounds, my brain jumps to that, I may not even know if I've missed something, or if people are a little bit vague and they make assumptions on what you mean, you have to read between the lines.
there's a lot of circumstances within the information processing, which really impacted because how can you do your work right? If you don't have the information you need. So I'm like, I constantly. I have to clarify it and it makes you feel like a complete idiot when it's not your fault. You just start being given the information and then as a result it impacts the work and it looks like a drop in performance, which I will go into a little bit later on.
And then the other one. One of the other main points, I think, is the people pleasing tendencies, because, and again, I know that this impacts a lot of people and other marginalized identities as well, but from a neurodivergent perspective, specifically, Is uh,I've spent my whole life adapting and trying to overcompensate and always feeling like I've disappointed people.
So I found it really difficult to basically set boundaries in a work environment, or I've always bitten off more than I can chew because I'm like, Yeah, absolutely. I can do that for you. And then by the end of the day, they didn't even tell me when they wanted it. And I'm sat there like, Oh my God, like, are you an idiot?
Like, it just doesn't come naturally to me to say, when would you like this by? And people are never straightforward with what they need from you, like giving you the details. You sometimes have to pull it out of them and remember to get a deadline or ask about expectations. I became really overwhelmed.
Like became bent out again, like it impacts the quality of my work and it becomes like a vicious cycle I feel like i'm constantly behind
Lena: And I think this is such a good example, because, I want to pick out the people pleasing aspect a little, because I think it illustrates it so well, but like, yeah, someone approaches you and asks, can you do that? And you're like, yeah, of course I can, like, that's the first, like, it's the impulse almost, like, it's not even that you have to think about it consciously.
It's just, yeah, obviously, I'm going to have to do that. And only then, at the end of the day, it dawns on you, like, oh, What the heck did I sign myself up for again? And it reminded me of a thing that my therapist said a long time ago, that I often go back to, which is, the greatest potential for change in humans lies in putting a pause between our initial impulse and our action.
And I felt what you said in terms of, you know, trying. To work with these tendencies that you have now you're trying to interrupt them, but that's still always work. Like, you still have to put that pause in there consciously and be like, well, okay, I'm going to have to ask about their deadline or their expectations or whatnot.
Adya: yeah.
Lena: How do you feel about doing that? I mean, especially in the communications context, because honestly, you know, we talk about communications so much, especially in the leadership space and also in many conversations on this podcast. It seems like a huge barrier, like an invisible one, but that doesn't make it less real.
Adya: Yeah, absolutely
Lena: you shared when we were discussing this topic, you shared a sentence with me that I was really struck by and that I want to unpack a little bit. you know, You shared with me, and I quote, ableism is one of the most casually accepted forms of discrimination. And I'd love to hear a bit more about that.
Adya: Yeah, so Where to start unpacking with that? I mean firstly it's amazing to have this Anonymous safe space to talk about that because though, you know, I quite opened up a lot of things like this it's one of those things which you would say, you know that meme which is like What's one opinion that you have which will, like, make people up at you with the pitchforks?
And, like, yeah, if you can sort of, like, picture that is kind of how I feel about this because as somebody who has other marginalized identities outside my neurodivergence, which I do, you know, like, face some casual discrimination with that. It's very, like, subtle and, you know, it is nowhere near as much as I experience ableism as an almost weekly occurrence.
I would say probably even more like probably about like several times a week And i'm not just talking about like workplace settings i'm talking about in like friendships talking about family Friends relationships outside of the home as well Just like when you're interacting with people, you know for some kind of service or literally anything like that
And it is so common and yet it's casual. It's so casually accepted because I'm like, don't get me wrong as a woman and misogyny is still very prevalent. It's very real and it feels like arguing with stupid sometimes and when you try to call it out Yeah, you get it. But for ableism, it's not taken seriously It doesn't feel like it is like hardly ever taken seriously.
so when you talk about in like a workplace context, if you ask a woman in an interview, if like she has kids or she's planning to have kids, that's like discrimination and it's not acceptable. Yeah. It's like completely illegal. In fact, I think, like there's no gray area there.
Yeah. It's black and white. And like, again, it doesn't help to have that. The law is also gray in terms of like, what is like a disability discrimination and what actually isn't, which makes it difficult for people to convince themselves. Like, yes, like this is absolutely not right. And like gaslight themselves and then like not call it out.
And even when they call it out, they get shot down because they're told that they're overreacting, that they're being sensitive, that they're making things up, because it's something that you can't see.
Lena: How have you dealt with experiencing this kind of ableism in your work history?
Adya: So the ableism that I've experienced in the workplace is sometimes quite hard to distill a little bit because a lot of the times it's really difficult to actually Prove that was the case, but when you are the only person on the team, it starts to become pretty obvious I've been managed out.
I've been subjected to hostile work environments. so hostile that I went from like waking up and being really excited to Work to actually like having a pit of anxiety in my stomach like knots where I didn't look forward And the fact that it shouldn't have actually happened, it's just so common.
And I've had people like talk to me, like I'm completely stupid. And I'm sat there like, I know I can work like 10 times faster than you, like given the right environment, like I pick things up exceptionally quick. And that's why I've been able to do what I'm actually done in my career, because I'm not even, you know, that far into it.
And to be completely honest, I've achieved things that people can take like 20 years to achieve. And I know it's not a competition. Like it's completely, it's like conflicting, right? Like, how can you think that I'm incapable? And like a specific example of this ableism I experienced is when I was given an out of cycle performance review.
by out of cycle. I mean, you know, like obviously companies have yearly performance reviews and everyone does them all together and that's still good for you again, right? but this performance review, it was completely out of the blue because there was nothing raised before then it was completely unwarranted and it just had some really horrible feedback, which some of it was warranted.
I will say like, I'm not just sat here and saying like, no, this is all wrong. And I completely took that on board. It was completely reasonable, but about 60 percent of it was inactionable and just a critique of my neurodivergent traits. And some of the things which I can quote from that is, She could be a hundred steps ahead.
Like, what does that mean? Like,how is that a bad thing? You know, it's not my fault you're a hundred steps behind. How's that? Like, sounds like a, sounds like a you problem. but then there's also like, Her communication style is overwhelming. In what sense? Again, like, completely inactionable.
Also, there was one, comment that said, Active listening is her worst trait. That's where she really struggles. And now, I want to pause on this one, because specifically on active listening, I know that this is a phrase that is used quite a lot and thrown around quite a bit, and I don't think people actually realize the magnitude of how problematic that actually is, because if you Google the definition of active listening, it says, amongst other things, retaining eye contact, listening to understand instead of respond, not interrupting, not losing concentration, etc.
And, Those are things which can be quite difficult for neurodivergent people. And it doesn't mean that we're not listening. Actually. I say to a lot of people when I'm in a meeting, I'm probably not going to look at the camera a lot of the time. I might be looking at my fidget toy, just like playing around with it.
I might be doodling or something. A lot of the time I can either like, look like I'm listening or actually listen. And I can't always do both. So I don't know what giving that feedback actually meant. And I should probably mention that in the majority of these things that I'm talking about, there were no specific examples whatsoever.
Not a single example actually given with any of these comments, so I couldn't really relate it to an experience. Okay, like sometimes not everything is taken as a critique on a neurodivergent trait, right? Because if it is realistically impacting the people on my team, there can be a way to actually like work together, but without expecting them to discipline the traits out of someone.
So for example, like how to offer feedback on that, if it was really that bad, why wasn't it said at the time? Because I can't remember, can't remember it.
Lena: You just weren't told about it before getting that review in your face.
Adya: Yeah, I wasn't told about it. Yeah, before getting it and being more specific with it. So maybe avoid the use of active listening, but the term active listening saying that we were not listening just because of like, you know, People can get a little bit defensive about that, especially if you've received feedback that before Like that before it can put up walls so best to perhaps avoid that But if you've got somebody on your team and you're having for example, like a kickoff Like a project kickoff meeting and they're really just struggling to take in the information and they just seem like they're saying things out of context and everything.
And after that meeting, as soon as possible, maybe just follow up with them and say, like, I just wanted to share some feedback on that meeting to sort of help you work a little bit better in that context. Do you want me to send it over message or do you want to jump on a call? And then explain it like it is, don't just like attack that person's traits saying what the impact actually is by saying like there are for a few instances, for example, like you interjected with something, but it was quite out of context.
So I wasn't sure whether you were on track with the rest of the meetings and maybe it did derail it a bit. I don't know, does you perhaps notice that you might not have been aware. And what's something that we could do about
Lena: exactly.
Adya: But if a thought comes into your head, like, do you perhaps want to pop it into the chat so then it doesn't stop someone's flow?
And if you give feedback, like, in, in that way, it's not going to make somebody defensive. and the one on one communication style, I mean, just saying that it's overwhelming isn't okay.
I think the worst, one was she needs to learn to read the room, which is, yeah, I'm not My reaction is so like, I'm going to take this from like a wider perspective and telling someone to read the room is possibly like one of the most privileged things you can say, because somebody's ability to read the room is defined by their upbringing, like their cultural background, their socioeconomic background, their education level, their ethnic background, their neuro diversity, whether they're disabled or not, there are so many things that somebody would need in order to read a room.
Man, I don't. I don't know if somebody's being sarcastic. I don't know if they're bored. I don't know if they're joking. I don't know if they're angry at me. Like, I don't know. There's a lot of things that I can't actually pick up on and telling somebody in feedback that they need to learn to read the room actually means that they want you to learn how to read their room.
Yeah. And I was honestly just so baffled how none of the feedback that you've quoted is about, you know, the way that feedback is supposed to be given and including, you know, framing the impact that your actions or inactions had, but instead just on the content. Yeah. You know, using idioms or colloquialisms to describe things and with all of these examples, including the one about presence and meetings and the piece you mentioned from the feedback. It's really unclear to me, you know, like, does it what does it actually mean? Does it mean that people have the impression that you're not listening or that you're not participating or. Do people feel like something is disrupting the meeting floor, it's making it harder to come to clarity, whatever those things are.
Lena: If the impact were clearer than you and your boss and your teammates or whoever could actually work together to figure out well. We. Obviously, all communicate in different ways. We have different brains that work in different ways.and you already mentioned things that can help here, like sharing up front.
Hey, here's how I operate in meetings. I might not stare into the camera hole at all times. then other people can say, hey, here's how I communicate. Here's how I communicate. Here's how we can make this better for everyone. But the way that this is framed right now is just like, hey, you're the problem.
The way that you're behaving is the problem. It's not that there's any clarity on what the impact of it is, but basically they're saying, I just hate the way you act. And here's your performance review.
Adya: yeah, basically saying, like, we just didn't like you. Fix this. And there's somebody on LinkedIn, and I apologize because I can't remember who the original poster of it is. This isn't something I've written, but she says if you're giving autistic people feedback on how to communicate with their team, I hope you're giving the team feedback on how to communicate with the autistic person because it shouldn't just go one way.
I deplete so much energy accommodating the people around me and I'm constantly overthinking like, was that too much? or are they annoyed at me? Like, what context can I give? And overthinking things all the time, bending over backwards. Like, but the 5 percent of the time that I'm able, that I'm not able to do that, or I just don't think about it is when I'm in the wrong.
And then I actually have to fix it. So people Don't actually like realize that the reason that you've seen that is because I've slipped and this is actually quite natural for me and what I'm Doing the rest of the time is like the
Lena: mask came off a bit.
Adya: Yeah, the mask came off of it. Exactly.
Lena: Yeah, like, I don't know if you use the concept of masking and unmasking, but it's one that I find really useful. Yeah,
Adya: yeah I do absolutely like and it takes up so much energy and people will say like we really want you to feel comfortable unmasking and Okay, but like what are you doing to make sure I feel comfortable to do so and because like you know If you're reprimanding me and shaming me for traits that Even if the mask has come off a little bit, it's gonna go straight back on
Lena: it's just like going to lurk a little bit from behind that mask, like peekaboo style.
Adya: it is right there yeah just like a little peek and then it will come back yeah, it's like To explain it to the people listening, what the experience is like of masking is that it's a camouflaging technique. So if you think of like a chameleon changing their color to blend in with the background to avoid their prey, it's sort of like that.
it's often not a conscious mechanism. It's something which we just do unconsciously and has been instilled in us from such a, like a young age. When we were shamed for those things, it makes us more likely to mask. I'd be told that I'm too loud and I'm too rude. And to be fair, probably a lot of those things, which again, 20 years later, have been written down in my performance review feedback.
So that's probably why it hurts so much as well. Because I'm like, this is actually what I've been told from such a young age over and over, and it really took my self esteem down. And the only difference is now, like, I don't believe you. And I'm actually at that level. But to get to that point, takes a lot longer for some people.
It depends on when you're diagnosed. Some people are only getting diagnosed in their 50s or 60s. And the post diagnosis process, it really never ends, and it's quite complicated. So you just don't know what the impact will be when saying those kinds of things. I'm not saying that like, you know, you should really censor everything because again, like feedback can be warranted.
it obviously isn't a pass for, you know, being bruised over talking, not letting people get their input, not reaching out your potential for actually doing your work. But I think there's a way to say. Some things without it coming off as scolding. You know, I want, I wanted to bring this topic to the podcast because this is the first time I've been able to actually talk about it and rereading the performance review.
It just really unearthed a lot of those feelings that I felt at the time. So while someone might think that it's just very normal feedback, it's more than that. Like we carry those comments for a long time. Mm
Lena: And I'm really so honored that you've brought this here because of that, honestly, because I think it's a really important reminder for anyone in a leadership position listening who gives, you know, performance reviews, but also for anyone. Who's working with other humans, no matter if they're neurodivergent or not, because I know that these messages can really stick like this overall message that again, you're wrong.
You're doing it wrong. And we're not even going to tell you the impact of it or anything. And we're measuring you against the quote unquote, normal and the typical and what's to be expected of how. People normally interact and you are not doing this right.
And of course that stings. and even as you said earlier, like the historical context of having heard similar feedback, maybe even throughout your entire life and outside of work makes it even worse, like it's also like, I said this before, but I really want to emphasize again, like it's also really terrible feedback, just structure and content wise, in terms of like, this is not how feedback should be delivered.
But, there's so much more to unpack with it.
Adya: Yeah. Absolutely. And I know that this is just me sharing my experience and it's my singular lived experience, but it's actually really common. I was speaking to somebody, I think literally just last week and I was just sat in the corner like, Hey, how's your day? and this is somebody in quite a senior technical role.
They said, yeah, I'm all right. Like I had a performance review today and I'm just a bit down because it was just basically about my autistic traits, specifically like how I don't really attempt to form relationships with the people on my team because how people can socialize differently and bond differently. And a really good example of this is how people will only really socialize over drinks after work. But it's so overstimulating. After a full day of work, I want nothing but to go home and take off that mask that I've been wearing all day.
And it's been so heavy. I just want to read my book, you know, and relax.if your idea of not really forming relationships with the team and getting to know them and genuine relationships and everything is determined by how much someone is willing to go socialize in those kind of settings. it's ableist.
Lena: And I really like that example, because, I was just traveling for work a couple of weeks ago for, yeah, on a business trip. And after the first day of that, I also was asked to come to a bar with people and then other people joined. like, You know, and asked if I wanted to go to some other kind of party or bigger event.
Also, like, for the record, I'm usually not that kind of popular. It happens once a year kind of thing that I could ask 2 events in the same night. but, like, I immediately, I mean, I immediately said, like, listen, like, the big event is, like, too many people and there are too many unknowns, like, When we are at the bar, I initially said I was going to join because it was just a small group, but we got in and I immediately said, listen, everyone.
I'm really happy to hang out outside in the there's some seating area, but I cannot stay inside in the space because it's just too much. It's way too overwhelming. It's way too loud.and. I think the other factor, honestly, they're really wanted to mention is that, I think with a lot of the conversations about inclusion, it's really easy for people to respond and focus on 1 factor.
I mean, you've alluded to intersectionality already, like, the idea that we're. Impacted by different, forms of discrimination and disadvantages and, that those kinds of things can compound. Like, if your only means of socializing for people in your company or in your team is, for example, like, to have pizza in the office or go to a bar.
Well, you're also excluding people who don't like pizza or who don't drink, either because of, you know, religious reasons or because they're pregnant, or they just don't want to drink alcohol. and there aren't a lot of other options, like, or who don't want to be in environments where alcohol is consumed.
Like, there's so many more people who are affected by this. And with so many people, you may not even realize it, but you may end up excluding a lot of people all at once.
Adya: absolutely. I also think those kinds of things, and this might be an unpopular opinion, but they should, they should be done during work time. If you think work relationships are that important and warrant being mentioned in feedback, that's working hours.
Lena: Yes, exactly that. I fully agree because again, if it's a requirement for the job, then it's part of the work hours and not outside of that. So, I've really enjoyed everything you've shared so far. where would you like to go from here? What would you like to talk about next?
Adya: I think I'd like to talk about workplace accommodations or adjustments. the terms are used interchangeably depending on what country you're in. so if I mentioned one, it covers both. so accommodations are changes that an employer would make to remove or reduce a barrier faced by a disabled person or someone with a mental health condition as a result of their condition.
Um,So this can be changes to the physical workplace environment, changes to the ways of working or work patterns. so like part time hours, compress hours or flexible hours, or more flexible hours, I should say, than what people work. It could be providing a tool that they could use, like an online tool, or providing an auxiliary aid, like a standing desk, or noise canceling headphones.
And they're very specific to the individual. And they, you know, no two neurodivergent people are the same. And even if they have the same neurotypes, like ADHD and ADHD, No two people are like the same in general, and workplace accommodations can really make a big difference on how somebody works. It's important to mention that adjustments or accommodations are not a special treatment, and they're not a sign of incapability or weakness.
Disabled people, we are sometimes disabled by a society not built for us, as opposed to being disabled from a medical perspective. We're having some sort of deficit. And accommodations, they can make a really big difference, but whether people can get them is a whole different thing.
Lena: I'm curious, like, how did you learn that something like accommodations are possible? And then how did you obtain them for yourself? and are there accommodations that you've had in the past or that, you know, exist for folks with neurodivergency similar to yours?
Adya: So I think I learned about it pretty much the same way that I learned about a lot of aspects of neurodivergence and everything just from the internet and reading things and learning from people. And I do have a few really good resources and some PDF guides, which are very accessible, which I can share with you, like to put in the resources of the podcast, Because sometimes trying to try to troll the internet for information can be quite difficult.
the things that I'm sharing, some things from a legal perspective might be specific to like the country that I'm in. Of course, that is clear from the documents as to which country it's from. but they can definitely be transferable. So that's where I,I learned about it and I'll share my experience afterwards.
But first I wanted to talk about Things which have worked for me and how I kind of worked that out. I think it doesn't really come to you like magic after a diagnosis. Like it's such a learning process because you don't even realize that you were doing certain things or certain things are. or particularly hard, you feel as if everything is difficult so you can't really pinpoint it.
so there's this thing within neurodivergence which is called a spiky profile and that outlines the different kinds of areas of neurocognitive functioning that can be Very helpful to identify and distill where your barriers are, because you can't really put things into place until you know where your barriers are.
And like I said, it's an ongoing process. And my other piece of advice would also be, don't try to tackle everything at once, because if you put a lot of new things in place, like tools and changes, It might feel, like, really overwhelming, even for somebody with ADHD who loves novelty. Um,yeah, my advice is to just start off with a few tools or adjustments which don't feel, like, too drastically different from what you're already doing.
For me, personally, I love technology. I rely on it a lot. So there are a lot of, you know, Great free tools out there. and they're also like great affordable tools too. Again, if you're self employed and you're like paying for it yourself, but generally in most companies, your employer. does have to pay for it.
For example, like speech to text. there are so many AI tools out there. Of course, like do your research with those, but there are also different task management apps as well. Apps that automate things. for me, the most effective apps reduce my manual burden. I like my manual workloads. So the less I have to think about something, the better.
So there's one platform I use where I basically like put in a task. I'll say how long I need for it roughly, and then when I need and like the deadlines. So when I need to do it by, and it will actually put my time in my calendar, but it also moves it for me, like if it will move it dependent on if somebody books a meeting with me, that will take precedence until there are normal slots, in which case it won't allow people to book over it.
It's so smart because I'm like, yes, I can write a to do list. Yes, I can have due dates, but that process of having to think, when am I going to do this, actually? I mean, the time estimation, not always accurate from my side, but I don't want to rely on a machine for that. But yeah, that's just some of the things that I've actually found, like really helpful.let's see what else. I've also got a standing desk and noise canceling headphones, some fidget toys and everything like that. But, these are the things I've accumulated over the years.
Lena: Again, I really don't think there's a sort of living better with your neurodivergency starter kit. I mean, I kind of now wish that there was one. Maybe we should make that happen sometime.
Adya: Right? Yeah.
Lena: I think from what I heard from you just now, It sounds like there was a lot just trying to understand yourself.
Um, you mentioned like psyche profiles and understanding with more the shape of your needs and the shape of how your brain works. and then just trying different things out and experimenting, what can help you with that. And then over time, just through trial and error, making things incrementally better for yourself.
Adya: Yeah. Absolutely. I think sometimes listening to podcasts, like There's loads of ADHD and autism related content. There's like loads of that out there. If you specifically look for ones where people are just maybe talking about their own experiences, that can maybe spark some thoughts. There's also like loads of blogs like out on the internet too, and articles and things.
So I can guarantee you, like, even if you feel like, you know, a lot of options, there will always be something new where you're like, My goodness, I did not know that actually existed. Like how was this a thing? I wish I had knew about this 10 years ago You get it. Yeah, so just actually like exploring it and yeah doing a bit of trial and error is okay Um before I talk about my experience, I do want to add one thing It's okay for something to work really well for a period of time Like a few months and then it stopped working I think the concept of sunk cost fallacy, which is, you know, you feel like you've put so much work into something that you can't give up on it.
It's basically what happens when a team's worked on a project for like six, nine, 12 months. Nobody is accepting that. It's literally like absolutely crap. And you probably need to abandon it or start again because of the time that you invested in it. And you're thinking, man, it would be such a shame just by, I think a similar thing happens when you're thinking like, I've spent so much time setting this app or this software up and making it work for me.
and it did work and it's not working, but I must continue using it.
Lena: Sunken cost fallacy.
Adya: Yep. Yep. And from an ADHD perspective, it might apply to other people too. but it's that you need an ever evolving toolkit of things, essentially. and this is what managers should also recognize because it's very natural to have the ebbs and flows where we kind of just get bored of stuff, or you might need to switch to something else.
Like it's like, Let's say if you use a task management app, maybe you set it up and you use it for a little bit and you get bored. So you stop using it at that point, you should switch to something else. And, then it repeats and you get bored and you go back to the other one. And, I don't hear people talking about that too much.
Like, it doesn't mean the thing has stopped working. It's just stopped working for now. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I just want to normalize that. Like it's okay. It doesn't mean it's. Anything is broken or anybody is broken.
Lena: Yeah, it's just not serving you anymore. I
Adya: Yeah, exactly. It's something that's not serving you. and the quicker that you can accept that yourself, because we are just, you know, so hard on ourselves, the sooner you can accept that the, there's something like better out there, but in a contrast to that, my experience with getting the reasonable adjustments or workplace accommodations has not been a largely positive experience, to be honest.
and I want to talk about that a little bit. One thing, as I would say again, it's different by country. Denying the reasonable adjustment because you don't think the person needs it because it's too expensive. and I'm not talking about anything super expensive, like not in the thousands. You know what I mean?
Like some of these adjustments or accommodations are cheaper than like one cup of coffee a month. But even if it costs a little bit, it's up for debate, whether the accommodation can be denied based on the cost, the size of the company and things like that. They're not valid reasons to deny reasonable adjustments.
It's a gray area. Yeah. It's probably quite difficult for managers, don't you think?
Lena: I mean, honestly, from, you know, the perspective of a neurodivergent person, I find that, again, there is a ton of self advocacy that people have to do, and it's people for whom the system already isn't designed. And so there's so much hoop jumping that, depending on the shape of your neurodivergency, can just make all of this a lot harder.
I do briefly just want to check, regarding the kind of process for being able to access accommodations or adjustments, because my understanding of The accommodations process at a super high level, and again, it varies from country to country is that at least in some cases, a diagnosis from a doctor or similar entity is needed in order to be able to access accommodations and that then a doctor or other medical professional needs to basically say, hey, this person has this diagnosis, or they have the following requirements or accommodation needs in the workplace.
Like, for example, adjusted hours or changes to the physical environment or whatnot. And then the employer, typically, I think that's usually with the HR department. The employer has to implement that.so I do want to check, does that actually match your experience or is there anything that I'm overlooking here?
yeah, what's your experience been?
Adya: Yeah. No, I think that's a good thing to double check. i'm fairly sure that in both the You UK and US, you do not need a medical diagnosis to ask for accommodations. Also, employers are technically not allowed to ask for the medical evidence as well because it's your private medical information. Also, technically you don't also have to disclose your specific condition like your form of neurodivergence or like your chronic illness, like mental health condition, whatever.
and technically I say that because for some people they feel like, well, they're gonna want to know why. I feel like they're going to ask anyway and it might just be easier to say it because they might understand a little bit. so I get it, but just so that people are aware, yeah, you can ask for the accommodations without mentioning the specifics.
You can say what barrier you face because of the health condition and why you need it and why this would help you. But, In terms of the process in general, for me and a lot of people, it's quite dehumanizing. You feel like you literally have to justify to the nth degree why you need something, for the person who's making that decision.
Sometimes in my case it was a manager, sometimes it was HR, And they would turn around and say like, yeah, I don't think you need that. So to give them justification for why I need a certain accommodation and for them to still say, no, it's really demoralizing. For example, I asked for a tool to help me like very affordable and to help automate a process.
And my manager said, well, I've got to do that manually. Why do you need this? It's hard to justify the need when I do this myself, this is almost like verbatim what they said.
Lena: Yeah, it's like, so close to getting the point, but also, like, really not by a mile.
Adya: Yeah,yeah, exactly. It's something like, you were so close to this, and missed the point completely, and it's probably worth mentioning that they are neurotypical. That doesn't mean that they don't understand it, but it's just that concept of, They could just couldn't wrap their heads around why I would find something difficult and like why I would actually need it.
So I had to explain it over and over like we spent a good 10 minutes actually talking about this and what I would say for the people listening is one thing that you take from this bit I hope is that it takes a lot for an individual, your direct report, to get to the point where they're asking for the accommodation.
It doesn't happen overnight. We are constantly going back and forth in our heads. Like, how should I ask this? What if they say no? maybe I'll just wait a little bit. Maybe if I just try this instead. Let's just see how, like, I get on. There's just so much that has happened for them to get to the point that If they're asking you, please trust them.
Please trust them that it's for a reason. It's okay to ask what barrier it might help with and say, like, what would this be for? Because, you know, HR or finance or whatever, they might have a reason for it. Then when they say it, like, don't actually question them. and as a manager or as someone in HR if an adjustment doesn't need to make sense to you in order to implement It always try to understand and sympathize. You have to remember that other neurotypes, they live every day with different challenges than you. it doesn't need to make sense to you because, I mean, sometimes it doesn't make sense to us either.
Lena: Yeah, just accept it.
Adya: yeah, and to add another instance, which is a really good learning point, is that a different adjustment I had asked for was denied and I got told to just block out time in my calendar. Which, to be honest, completely missed the point. It had nothing to do with it. I had nothing to do with what I was actually asking for. And I was like, that just doesn't work. I don't think you're really understanding. And again, I went through this whole process and it was denied. And I asked again, and it was denied only three months later. Did it actually get approved? the third time, only because I said, The lack of tool is having an impact on other people in my team.
Then it got improved within a, got approved within a day. But the impact on me, just me, was not enough to actually approve it because when you don't appear disabled enough to people, people think that, if you have a low support needs, it's a low impact on you, but that's actually not the case and they'll base it on what they think.
Lena: because the price that you're paying, you know, the heavy mask that you're carrying around and all of that, again, they're not seeing that. And it's to them, it's just, yeah, or you have low support needs. I mean, like the whole concept of folks with neurodivergences, who have lower versus high support needs, like that's a whole can of worms.
It's a really complicated concept. but I think the biggest, piece for this conversation is that to get your manager has the perception that, Oh, she's doing fine. She's doing her job. Like, what does she need? Any of this, It's making things so much harder for you. and I did want to pull out in terms of things that leaders could do better.
It sounds like with the experience that you've described big piece is as a leader, work with the people on your team to try and understand what problems and. Challenges they're facing, like you would with any other person as well, like, you should, and try and understand, like, how would a tool or other accommodation, like the ones you mentioned, how would it help them? Like, there's a lot in even understanding just the experience, lived experience of your team members, and then how they relate to a tool or other kind of accommodation or adjustment that they need.
I just want to check with you if that's something that you would find useful.
Adya: Yeah, absolutely. I think it depends on the individual, but sometimes having that conversation with HR might feel quite uncomfortable. And this is, I know this is nothing against HR professionals, like I've worked with some absolutely brilliant ones in my career as well. they are good ones, worth their weight in gold, but for a lot of people, they don't always feel that sense of safety.
So perhaps seeing if they were prepared to have that conversation with the manager, maybe avoiding having both of them in it, because that may definitely feel like an interrogation. And also, if you don't know a lot about the condition in question, before going into that meeting as a manager, maybe just do a little bit of reading on it, you know, just so that the person doesn't have to explain the really high level basics.
it would mean a lot for them to not have to do that. It shows That you've been a bit proactive. nobody's expected to be an expert on everything. Like there's a lot out there. It's so complicated. Even experts don't know everything inside out. So coming into that meeting, just a little prepared and giving a little bit of structure with some flexibility to talk about like what their job is day in and day out.
So even though you're not an expert in the condition, you can still talk about like communication, collaboration, and asynchronous communication. things like project management, task prioritization, task management, so many different things, the physical environment, sensory stuff.
So even without knowing that, you can actually say something like, okay, how do you find these meetings? How do you find the way we're communicating and working together as a team?
That opens up the conversation without pathologizing it, and then it helps the person asking for the accommodation come out and say, Yeah, do you know what? I actually find that, like, really difficult. Just encourage them and say that you don't need a solution for everything, by the way, we're here to try and work on it together.
it might need another call or something. so I know somebody actually works in a delivery management role, and they were, you know, diagnosed very recently. I asked them if they have a plan to mention it to their manager and they said, probably not because you know, like I've managed all this time. I do find things quite difficult.
though. And I told them, but you know, like you're overcompensating. And they said, one of the big reasons is that I know if I say it, they're going to ask me what accommodations do I need? And it's going to be on me to come up with them. And you can just accommodate people because things are hard.
Things are hard. Being human is just inherently, you know what? Like life is difficult. Life is difficult. And if you want to get the best out of your people, this is the way to do it, to actually really help them excel. So when I talk about the fact that my brain works so much faster than a lot of people, but if I'm not getting the right information, what could we do as sort of an intervention to prevent some of that unhelpful feedback and how people can feel like, did you ask me what I needed in order to process information properly?
No. So you can't say those kinds of things without actually recognizing the impact it has on somebody. And there could be an experience where it. isn't a dehumanizing conversation. So it's just like a very nice two way conversation. It's very exploratory. It's very open where they're really honest and they're like, what does time blindness, what does time blindness mean?
Like, what does that mean? How does it show up for you? Do you have an example? So maybe I can sort of picture it. That is the best kind of scenario that you could actually have. And you know what, like, if you do this for your people, obviously, as I said, you're going to get the best out of them.
They're also going to be very loyal.
Lena: Yeah. I'm very curious because it's, It really sounds like it's just about putting in the work to understand that a, someone's lived experience may be different from yours, and then b, trying to understand in what ways is a difference. Because then, honestly, you know, one thing I thought, right, that came up for me a lot as I was hearing your experiences.
Which have just like been really bananas in a lot of areas. Like, I know that so much of a leader's work is about creating an environment where people can thrive. And I guess, you know, there's a physical environment as part of that. But a lot of it also has to do with human interactions. And as I heard from you, there's just so much in genuinely trying to understand the people around you and then trying to work with them as the people they are. And I do want to emphasize that managers aren't allowed to ask for diagnoses or anything like that. I think that's really important. and I also think. You shouldn't ask for that information because there is a legal aspect, but even if you have good relationships with people in your team, it's not your place to ask for that.
but the thing that matters is their experience and the behaviors that they exhibit, and then the impact of that, like, what are the challenges that they run into the barriers that they face the things that are tricky for them. Try and really understand their experience. I get curious about it. You don't have to become an expert on ADHD or autism or physical disabilities because also the experience that someone has with those conditions will vary quite greatly.
So even if you had done a lot of reading or so, it's still about the individual's experience. That's in front of you, but your job as a manager, as leaders to understand their experience and then what is their life, their work life like, and how can you work with them and what can you do to support them?
Adya: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's an I won't go into it too much just as kind of like a wrap up. But Just something else to take into account is that there are a lot of co occurring conditions like autistic people and ADHD people particularly have a higher instance of like sleep disturbances and sleep problems like chronic insomnia, but you know if you If you've ever been like severely sleep deprived, and I'm not talking about like just one bad night's sleep, I mean like constantly, then you know that you cannot think straight, and of course it's going to impact them at work, and again, It's not your job to help them fix that from like a medical perspective, but just understanding that there are other things that also come into play, which might have impact on how somebody's traits actually show up at work.
It's important to keep that in mind. So for people who have given birth to children, Those hormones impact ADHD as well. a lot of those people actually only get their diagnosis afterwards because that period after birth, it sends their ADHD traits into overdrive and it becomes really obvious to them.
So again, it does make it a little bit more complex and you don't have to understand it inside out, but I think it all comes down to empathy. Looking at empathy through a different lens than you're used to.
OUTRO
Sly: The anonymity of this podcast is great because it's Like Adya can be really open about what you've experienced.
I really appreciate her sharing her experiences. I think it's really important to have the, non watered down experience of what people with and autism are facing in the workplace. So what do you, what are your thoughts on the episode so far, Lena?
Lena: Yeah, I, I honestly agree. I really love talking to her because I, as a fellow neurodivergent person, the point you just made really hit home to me that there's, it's already been such a revelation for me to realize that the way that my brain works and like often feels like it doesn't work, that's, you know, a real thing that other people experience as well.
And that's not what everyone's experience is like. I vividly remember when I went on like ADHD meds for the first time, you know, I. Not that everyone has to get medicated, you do what's good for you. But I remember that suddenly it felt like all the like, 75 radio stations that are on in my head at all times, they suddenly went almost quiet.
I was like, is this what everyone else's kind of mind experience feels like.and that was such an important part of it for me because I think like neurodivergency, like many other types of sort of being, quote unquote, other or, you know, different from the sort of weird societal standard, like it can already be so isolating.
And that's why I loved that Adya shared so many of, you know, her thoughts with us. yeah, it was very, a lot of it was very relatable to me.
Sly: For neurodivergent people who are looking for a job in tech, do you recommend they disclose their neurodivergent status or keep quiet until they're hired?
Lena: That is a really hard question. I think a really good one. I'll be honest, I don't want to give any recommendations on that.
Sly: Yeah.
I want tech, you know, our societies, like to be a place where people can just be who they are. hmm.
Lena: but I don't think we're there. I also think that. especially for leaders can often be really tricky.
Like we talk a lot here about, the kind of stereotypes about what a quote unquote good leader should look like and how they should behave and whatnot. Like neurodivergent people can be excellent leaders and can also be terrible leaders, you know, neurotypical people as well. Um, but, I do think those kinds of stereotypes and biases are still very real.
I mean, even if we look at, hiring data, and even just from a gender and race perspective, where we know those numbers, how predominantly white and male leadership roles still are. So yeah, if you feel comfortable disclosing it, feel That's great. If you want to just ask, you know, questions that help you understand if a workplace you're interviewing with might be a decent place for you to work in where you're not going to just not actively get discriminated against, or even, you know, implicitly.
That's also great if you don't want to disclose anything. more power to you as well. choose what's comfortable for you, choose with what feels okay, and what helps you ultimately pay rent or your mortgage, and sort of get through capitalism.
And that's our episode today. Leadership Confidential was created, produced, and presented by me, Lena Reinhard.
Our guest's voice was digitally modified. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Esteban Del Pino. Production assistance, bonus hosts, guest support, and social media by Sly Stark. Thank you for listening, and we'll hear you next time.
