Difficult Conversations: How to Initiate and Talk About Tough Topics with Nikita Rathi (LCPS01E15)
Preview
[00:00:00] Nikita Rathi: I think difficult conversations aren't just pervasive. Like they're part of every aspect of one's life. But, I found that most people find this really stressful, ranging from like a really small conversation, like a boundary setting one or a really hard conversation. You know, I think everyone This is a universal kind of emotion, where there's some kind of conversation that's difficult.
This conversation was recorded in January 2024.
Intro
[00:00:05] Lena Reinhard: we've all been there that moment when you know that you finally need to have that conversation that you've been dreading for weeks, the one that makes your stomach clench and the one that you would rather run away from. Maybe that conversation is about giving feedback to someone who's been struggling.
Maybe it's saying no to a request when you're worried about how it'll affect your career or your relationship with your boss, or maybe it's about addressing some behavior that's been impacting your entire team, but you find it hard to balance being kind while also holding people accountable. This is leadership Confidential, real talk on more than two hard things in technology, finding community and becoming the engineer leader you can be today, having difficult conversations
In my coaching and mentoring and leadership practice, I work with a lot of leaders on their difficult conversations every week.
What makes these conversations so difficult is by far most often that the conversation happens so much later than it should have happened because difficult topics have this weird habit of growing bigger exponentially. The longer you wait to bring them up and that's when something that could have been a quick remark or a short note suddenly turns into this gigantic dinosaur in the room that feels impossible to get under control or, you know, talk about.
So how do you handle the dinosaur or how do you make sure that maybe the dinosaur doesn't grow as big to begin with? That's what today's conversation is about. A deep dive into what makes some conversations feel difficult, being torn between compassion and performance that some managers experience and practical strategies for saying no without burning bridges. We also explored the dynamics that can make these conversations even trickier for women and other minorities in tech, and why it makes the biggest difference to focus your leadership approach on consistent caring leadership instead of perfect moments.
And my formidable guest today to talk about all this is Nikita Rathi. She's had been in the tech industry for several years transitioning from linguistics to software development and now leading engineering teams and organizations. Nikita has navigated the complexities of managing performance while maintaining empathy.
She's dealt with the challenge of saying no in a people pleasing culture, which I'm very, very happy. We talk about, and she's learned hard lessons about setting boundaries. Both for herself and her team members.
Here's real talk on more than two hard things in technology and difficult conversations with Nikita Rathi.
Our Conversation
[00:00:40] Lena Reinhard: we are here to talk about difficult conversations and I love that you picked that topic. what made you choose that?
[00:00:48] Nikita Rathi: Yeah. I think difficult conversations aren't just pervasive. Like they're part of every aspect of one's life. But, I found that most people find this really stressful, ranging from like a really small conversation, like a boundary setting one or a really hard conversation. You know, I think everyone This is a universal kind of emotion, where there's some kind of conversation that's difficult.
[00:01:14] Lena Reinhard: I. Yeah. Wholeheartedly agree. I mean, honestly, it's something I've really struggled with as well over my career and still do if we're being real here. and so I wanted to hear a little bit from you at first. What have you found makes conversations difficult for you at work?
[00:01:31] Nikita Rathi: Yeah, I was thinking about this question, and I think I've realized that when you're talking about something that actually really matters, that's a hard conversation,
yeah, you can, find that when things are emotionally charged, that's when you're hurt or angry. That's really hard. cultural differences, neurodiverse, perspectives, that makes things hard.I love to, or not love to, but I have grown up, sugarcoating things and, trying to accommodate people's feelings, whereas the people have maybe grown up with, being frank and honest and, being vulnerable and sharing feedback and those kinds of conversations feels hard.
[00:02:11] Lena Reinhard: and I love that you called out some aspects of what goes into kind of diversity as well, you know, neurodivergency, different cultures. And so I think diversity and inclusivity, it's non negotiables. That's not what we're talking about. but,it is a side effect that it also means that you have many more different people with different backgrounds, upbringings, socializations, cultural backgrounds, brains and how brains work.
Um, and that can also lead to tension and, conflict sometimes. And that's, it's ultimately, I think, good and helpful, but it's also, it's part of the deal.
[00:02:48] Nikita Rathi: Absolutely,
[00:02:49] Lena Reinhard: and in addition, the other thing that came to mind for me is that I think I have, I grew up in Germany, which is like stereotypically, very direct culture, but I didn't used to be like that. I still, I'm not, um, I think I, Grew up similarly to what I heard from you a little bit with , what I'd call people pleasing tendencies.
It's like avoiding conflict and ensuring harmony and everyone getting along and all that. and so for me, difficult conversations can also be things that feel more confrontative, even if it's about not even feelings or so, but even when it's about a business case, where we just have differing opinions and need to figure out a path forward. also another aspect I've struggled with sometimes is basically when the blast radius of the communication or conversations I have is quite large, like when sharing, larger announcements or emails with an entire engineering organization of several hundreds of people, or talking about, for example, big political events when Trump was elected or when the black lives matter movement really took off in the U. S. or even when George Floyd was killed by a police officer or, talking about having conversations about me too, and the workplace and even like outside... Quote unquote outside events that obviously we're not doing tech in isolation. And so talking about those things with individuals, also talking about, I mean, I'm a white person, like having conversations with people about microaggressions, racism, and other things that they're experiencing.
So yeah, that's, that's the area, the direction that my brain went into as well. hard stuff.
[00:04:24] Nikita Rathi: yeah, absolutely. yeah, and when you see, the communication to like a large blast radius, is that kind of coming from a place of, like being vulnerable and that being hard?
[00:04:39] Lena Reinhard: I think it's one piece of it, because of course I'll use the black lives matter protests as an example because it's still a topic, but at the time when the protests really took off in the U S I was working with the team that was based in a lot of cities where protests were happening.
We had a lot of black folks on the team and it's a topic where. I have personal, complicity just by the fact that I'm white and this is about race and the very complicated history of race specifically in the US, but then also across the globe. And I want to do right by the folks who are on our teams.and I want to acknowledge that we are not working in isolation. I think there's always this,pretense that tech is apolitical. Like it is very much not, but at the same time it's capitalism, baby. And so that also means that companies have to pretend to be apolitical, to sell to as many people as possible.
I get that. and at the same time, you know, being a leader in an organization, wanting people to feel like they can be in a workplace. I don't think. Being authentic necessarily has to be the goal, but they can be in the workplace. They feel like they can be there with who they are to the degree that they're comfortable with that.
And that also does include, yes, how do I then as a white person leader in this organization,talk about those things to ultimately lead to a place where people feel like they can. Continue being in this place. They also understand that, for example, practical things like can they take time off or are they just, able to leave work to go to protests or shut down their computer and take the day off if they're not feeling well because things affect them.
So I think there is a logistical component to it. But in order to, I think, make space for the logistical component and for people to be in it, there needs to be some sort of. I'm addressing things and that's what I view at least is my role in this, but it also, because of who I am, because of my own background, it does mean that for me, this is difficult and, something that at the same time, because I'm in a position of power, I view it as my responsibility to honestly like figure my shit out there. And, you know, I'm not going to go to employees and ask them for their help in helping me work out, these topics.
I want to ask you an example of a really hard conversation that comes to mind for you, or also ask about basically which specific types of difficult conversations you want to talk about. We can also do both, but let me know what you feel like.
[00:07:09] Nikita Rathi: yeah, I think, maybe personal and adult could be an interesting one. This is I was a new manager at this time. And,I was working with somebody on the team.
And I was caught in a dilemma, so I won't go into too many specifics, but I often had to give hard feedback to this person about , their performance while they were going through something really hard in their
[00:07:33] Lena Reinhard: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:07:35] Nikita Rathi: And,I, I realize now that this could be multiple things, right?
Like something in their family situation, a world event that is causing a lot of stress. But, in this particular scenario, I often like in interviews and often just like throughout my one on ones now, I think like, how could I have done this better? it's How do you balance giving someone hard feedback because that's the fair thing for the rest of the team, but also like balance, like having compassion and,just empathy as, a manager.
And, yeah, I'm not sure, like, if I did it right or not. I think what I do know is they felt comfortable talking to me about their personal life. And sometimes I wonder if I went too far into that, you know, too much empathy and not enough good boundaries then giving feedback was always a really hard challenge. And that Made the rest of the team, they suffer.
[00:08:34] Lena Reinhard: Mm hmm. Right. I'd love to hear a bit more about the impact on the rest of the team. and It sounded like you were grappling with basically how to give that feedback and it sounds like basically the rest of the team existing was a motivator for giving that feedback. But I may have misunderstood, tell me a bit more about that.
[00:08:54] Nikita Rathi: yeah. So we can go into a bit more details. So this person was an engineer, a senior engineer. very looked up to, a mentorto the others and they were, Basically in a point of, cynicism in their life and they were very approaching solutions cynically, shutting down ideas.
I think it's the shutting down of other people's ideas. That was the most concerning thing. And, that was the setup, right? Like the team, was relatively young in tenure. And so we were really looking to this person for that support and guidance and like being a teacher. And, I think,it's also interesting because so much of cynicism is, symptomatic of burnout and exhaustion and something else that I know about this person is that this wasn't their behavior, like this was a change in their
[00:09:47] Lena Reinhard: right.
[00:09:48] Nikita Rathi: So then, you know, you also start to think about okay, are we setting them up for success like as a company, are the things around them, helping them set up for success and, obviously this glaring thing, like they were going through something huge in their life. I would have probably taken time off work, but that's not my place to tell someone that, right?
So I think that was the setup and always a really tough one and I've seen flavors of this over and over again.
[00:10:16] Lena Reinhard: it sounds like you've been thinking about this quite a lot since. What would you have done differently in hindsight?
[00:10:23] Nikita Rathi: Yeah,I've learned that they were speaking of, different ways of processing feedback, etc. I think, This person would have benefited from a lot of written feedback etc.
So on the one side, like we were, we had a good connection in terms of like, they were able to trust me and tell me stuff, right?
and like I said, maybe I went too far. So I think the first thing I might have done is create better boundaries. like maybe redirect them to,the people team or, I, refer them to the employee resources we had, like, , we had a partnership with,a therapist organization.
So that those are things I might have done differently now. but at the same time, yeah, I think, when I was giving them feedback, it would often become defensive the whole conversation because maybe they felt like they could, be completely honest and free and that I appreciate. Yeah, another thing I was going to say when you asked me earlier what makes the conversation difficult is for me over and over is like lack of preparation and being caught off guard, like that conversation really difficult.
So I think what I would have done with them is given myself some space and not have it be real time. Um, maybe had a real time checking like after. So more frequent check ins, but more kind of clear written expectations and feedback.
[00:11:44] Lena Reinhard: Yeah. Cause it also sounds to me like you could have benefited from having that space, but they could have also,
[00:11:52] Nikita Rathi: Absolutely. I think that's for both of us.
[00:11:55] Lena Reinhard: Yeah, that, that makes sense. are there things that you did there you would do the same way as you did them back then?
[00:12:01] Nikita Rathi: Yeah, I think, I always want to make space for people to be able to talk so I think the fact that I was able to create that, trust between us, while, putting some like guards and checks for like related boundaries.
I think. Another thing that worked really well there was,coming up with, flexible work arrangements. this person was going through something in their personal life and what they needed was, they used work as a distraction. And we've all been there, right?
They needed work. they needed to come to work. And I think, coming up with like flexible work arrangements. there's, it was really being impacted. So shifting things around and like being more compassionate when it came to yes, we can make it work for you, and change the system.
I think those are things that I would continue to do while also making it clear, these are the outcomes or the expectations. That we still have.
[00:12:54] Lena Reinhard: honestly, that's a really interesting point because,a lot of people ask about this topic. I did speak coaching at lead Dev, just a month ago, and I think there were three people who separately from one another, came to me with something like this.
And, I really love the call out you just made because Yes, this is about having difficult conversations, but I feel like the big question that's buried in there is basically, how can you be aware and, take care of people and or care for people rather, and at the same time, Maintain a bar for performance.
and then have conversations about that. Like , what's the expectation towards someone who's not doing well and you are aware of that. and what expectation is fair towards them as well as the rest of the team and the company that's paying them for their time.
How do you feel about that?
[00:13:46] Nikita Rathi: I think it's spot on like that balance, performance compassion dilemma. I think, it's a really, it's a tightrope and it's a really, I think nuanced thing. Yeah, I think we'll get it wrong. We'll get it right.but,I have understood and learned the benefits of having documentations, clear expectations, and then, following a people centric approach to caring and, making accommodations.
[00:14:15] Lena Reinhard: I love the points you already mentioned in terms of things you learned from them. This is a really good one to go back to talking about other kinds of difficult conversations because it feels to me that basically having some sort of shared thing can really help make a lot of difficult conversations less difficult.
if it's, shared expectations, we're all on the same page in terms of, for example, what your job is when we're talking about performance or we have , shared understanding. Or at least we have a shared document that outlines our strategy that may not mean a shared understanding.
but there is one thing that we can at least connect to, or anchor in, that seems like a really big commonality.
[00:14:54] Nikita Rathi: Yeah, that's really good point. yeah, I'm just, you just made me think about what is the structure of every difficult conversation? what's the pattern that makes it hard? it's, yeah, like you said, probably the first thing that gets violated is that you're just not on the same page to begin with. So I like the, framing around, like anchoring to something. either like a common outcome, what is the future of this conversation or relationship. but yeah, I am curious, like other types of difficult conversations. is there, I know you've mentioned like some conversations that are difficult. Does do any like anecdotes and that you, would definitely love to learn.
[00:15:35] Lena Reinhard: there definitely are. I was honestly, I was even thinking to some relationships that I've had where that was a real issue. where thinking of one specific person, I'm not going to talk about details for obvious reasons, but, where essentially at some point we kept getting into fights about like stupid stuff, like just silly things.
And at some point you realize Weneed to remind ourselves that we actually want to, we actually like each other and care about each other and want to be together, reassure each other that we actually both still want that. And then we can figure out the details. and, I feel like that kind of dynamic is one that I've experienced a lot.
I actually was working just with a, with someone this week on a similar topic where, They've been dealing with just a lot of communication challenges with an employee, and things basically were really difficult from the get go and, they kept giving feedback and more feedback, you know, using the SBI model for situational behavior impact, other frameworks, there's so many out there and they felt like it just wasn't landing, and like both the employee and the manager were Getting more and more defensive.
and that kind of dynamic I see quite a lot. And I've realized that often when that happens, the only way out is basically to reset, to take a couple steps back. And I do think, Giving sort of specific situational feedback and all that is really good. Those are important tools, but those only work if you're clear on what the point is, what you're even talking about and including these kinds of reset conversations where you basically like zoom out. you look at, What are we doing here? What's been making this hard? How do we want to continue with this, including sometimes that may also include that someone may be better off in a different team or, may need , a different role or things like that.
but having that zooming out conversation, Can be a really good way to reconnect with what you're even doing instead of getting lost in yet another situation where you're arguing. here's what I perceived. Here's what you perceived. And now we're stuck again. and breaking through that a little bit.
I would say this is something that comes up probably once a month at least in my coaching now. And it's, I've experienced it a lot as well. And, It's often helped people like step back and have very different conversations, because one part of it is, of course, also that there's usually some sort of power dynamic involved,
there's usually like the employee is reporting to the manager. The manager can fire them, promote them, increase their compensation or whatnot. And that's already not a good setup for something like this. I found.
but I think in figuring out a way to take a couple steps back from the fights or discussions about small things can sometimes be really useful.
[00:18:24] Nikita Rathi: Yeah, absolutely. Just zooming out and being like, what is the point of this?
I think makes a lot of sense. Um, I'm trying to think, about the hardest conversations I've had and, you know,, speaking of personal conversations. I think the hardest conversation I've had is coming out to my mom
[00:18:45] Lena Reinhard: and, speaking of our dynamics and just like different dynamics.
[00:18:49] Nikita Rathi: And I was trying to think of like communication patterns and where you fall into these patterns, often without the ability to take a step back because you have so much shared history or so much just baggage. I don't know if this model applies to everything, but I do know that looking back one probably made it harder than it was.
It was hard.
[00:19:13] Lena Reinhard: Yeah.
[00:19:14] Nikita Rathi: It was also so much the anticipation of the conversation is almost worse than the actual conversation itself.
and, yeah, I think what helped a lot was Playing out different situations, like different responses that would happen, like room playing or whatever. I,
[00:19:31] Lena Reinhard: play like hardcore in your personal life. Perfect. Mm-Hmm?
[00:19:37] Nikita Rathi: it's like, Hmm, I'm going to say this and they might say this. And I think this has applied and like serve me as a good tool.
[00:19:45] Lena Reinhard: worked in my relationship in every other sphere of my life. It's just have that little mental exercise or a written exercise or have it with someone. but yeah,
congrats. Honestly, like that's a really hard conversation to have. And good for you having it. Like you can be really proud of yourself.
[00:20:06] Nikita Rathi: yeah. It was many years ago now. And it's it's just like a big sort of pain and memory, but I do know that I thought about it. For, many years, just every night, before sleeping.I met my therapist because of it, I think, yeah, now it feels easy to talk about.
[00:20:25] Lena Reinhard: I love that example, and. Another thing that it made me think of is that, one thing that makes many conversations really difficult for people is that we start imagining things.and especially for things that are going on for a longer time, we start building up an idea of who someone is, what they do, how they will react.
and. Honestly, for a lot of people that also leads to delaying difficult conversations. And I get that. I'm not exactly a sort of confront everything immediately person. I often also make, ah, it's just this one time it'll not happen again. Not happen the second time. Ah, whatever.
It's fine. it's not that bad. And talk myself out of, Addressing things head on, but that often also means that then there's this, first of all, it usually growsand problems kind of start piling on, which makes it increasingly harder to talk about. And I then, yeah, realize I developed this idea and kind of.
Get scared, honestly, of how someone's going to react. Like I used to have, what in hindsight, I can only describe as being bullied by an employee who was reporting to me. and that person ended up having so much power in our relationship. I would have panic attacks before one on ones.
and a big part of that was that,I got in the middle of larger dynamics happening at the company. but, I had a really hard time even finding ways to connect with this person at some point, because it just became so scary to even talk.
And, that's where I one part I'd want to call out is like addressing these things early on. I speak with so many people every week where I go, you know, I I'm going to wait another week and see how it, no, don't wait another week. if the conversations feels difficult to have right now, dig into what's making it feel that way. and address it very early on. And I guess you said earlier, I pull in HR or other resources for help. If you need that, there's no shame in that. but don't delay that kind of stuff because it just, it gets messier
every time. And it's going to be so much easier after, even though in the moment having that conversation is hard.
[00:22:37] Nikita Rathi: yeah, yeah, I think that's so spot on,I come from a family of let's sweep things under the rug, like, that's why...
[00:22:43] Lena Reinhard: Oh, Same. Yeah. We have so many things we can't talk about.
[00:22:47] Nikita Rathi: yeah, And I met my partner and , she studied communications literally. and she, you know, she works as a, she works at a company as a PR and comms manager. And I think a lot of her job is to identify like good Patterns of,communication and I think just one example that stands out is like how to apologize.
I was called out many times early in my relationship with her. It's like, you know, that's, that's not an apology. It's like, Hey, I'm sorry if you feel that way.
Like that's definitely.
[00:23:19] Lena Reinhard: Don't say that. Including in the workplace. No.
[00:23:25] Nikita Rathi: But, um. Yeah,that sounds like a really tough situation with, you were the person you were working with and dreading one on ones.
I have never quite felt that, extreme, but I definitely know that there are some one on ones that feel harder than others.
Mm-Hmm.But, yeah, I guess speaking off,like working with managers, etc. I wanted to talk a little bit about like managing up as well. Like, I really struggled with this.
I think, I'll have all of these thoughts in my mind, like these are the things I want to talk to them about or so and then I just I get to that moment and it's like, uh, if I say this, will my ambition to get that title someday be half heard or,should I say yes to this request?
Saying no is always hard, like, no conversations are so hard. So I was, yeah, wondering, if you've thought about that.
[00:24:20] Lena Reinhard: Oh yeah. I wanna call out the two parts, or name the two parts you mentioned, or that I heard in this. At least you let me know if that resonates. But the one part is essentially the being on the other side of the power dynamic that we've talked about, like basically being the employee who depends on your boss for promotion or anything.
and the second part, the managing up part, what I heard so far is basically just, yeah, concerns is, are things that I'm going to say going to get in the way of me progressing of my career evolving.
And that's, that's probably where the same no is so that you can make a concrete example in a way where if you're refusing requests or so that could come back to haunt you.
[00:24:59] Nikita Rathi: Absolutely.
And what have you tried so far to manage up and say no? Yeah, I, I mean, obviously, I've had several managers and it's so different based on my manager and how safe they make me feel to really be vulnerable and honest. And, Yeah. Some of the best managers I've had. I haven't even had this thought,
that's the best part, like, where I really truly can be like, Hey, actually, I, I just don't have bandwidth for this.
I spoke about people pleasing at lead dev and a lot of the, a huge chunk of this is my relationship with the word no. And over time, I've definitely. learn some strategies. and I have a very long list of ways to say no.
[00:25:47] Lena Reinhard:
[00:25:47] Nikita Rathi: it's like someone asked me to, go for dinner, a friend and saying no is hard. So I would say Hey, I have a lot on right now. I, I willI have all these scripts now.
[00:26:00] Lena Reinhard: I love that. I want to see that list but we can talk about that later.
[00:26:05] Nikita Rathi: yeah, seriously. and I think one that I have to say a lot, is at work, to stakeholders, right? Like feature or hey, it's, so what if I tried so far, like question right? Employing the script, finding ways of compromise. Like I'm always trying to find a way of complex way of compromise, because.
I found that when people say no to me, I have an emotional response to.
Right. And, Mm hmm. I've been thinking about this a lot. it's yes, I have respect for them that they said no to me, something I find hard. So I really respect it. But I also think that saying no does inevitably erode something,I, I don't know.
[00:26:50] Lena Reinhard: Yeah. And in, in some contexts, like it would be like, Hey, listen, would you be interested in doing this task? Or Hey, can we work on this together? And they were like, Hey, no, just straight up. No, I would feel like taken aback. But if someone says, Hey, I don't think I have bandwidth for this right now because I'm working on this and this, like that feels like a softer blow to me.
[00:27:12] Nikita Rathi: And I really be objective and really appreciate that. Yes. Thanks. I've been there. I appreciate you taking space and creating that value for yourself.
[00:27:19] Lena Reinhard: yeah, I'm often trying to find this,compromise. It does feel hard, though, is,think of someone else's needs.
[00:27:26] Nikita Rathi: Cause you also you also have to then come up with like compromise ideas or things that you feel will still satisfy the original request, even if you just can't or don't want to or whatever your reasons are. It's a lot of extra work. Yeah, it is. I don't know. how do you think about this? Especially with,the kind of double bind that exists for women in the workplace, we can be so close to being like, oh, too passive versus too arrogant. And I do think that this word, really straddles this, or really represents this tightrope so well.
So I'm curious, what is your experience with this been?
[00:27:58] Lena Reinhard: Oh boy. Yeah. there is a, there is a really good article that, came out, I think it's seven years pretty much exactly. And there's, I think it's the only article where I even know that. and the headline of it is, for every yes man at work, there is a no woman.
And it has resonated with a lot of the people I've shared with.the article came out ironically, Two months or very fittingly, rather two months after I left the company that I co founded after two years as a co founder and CEO and my co founders were four men.
And that was basically the encapsulation of my experience. And before that article came out, I wouldn't even have been able to articulate why I had to leave. But at some point, I just knew I had to get the fuck out of there.and.that's one big thing that comes to mind for me in that there is, there are a lot of gender dynamics where I love the way you put this around how the word no kind of is almost the marker or symptomatic for this very thin line to walk between being accommodating and, like also being someone who gets shit done and, at the same time, not yeah.
being too bossy or just, refusing to do things or not being a go getter. I am going to share a couple more thoughts that come to mind and then just ask you what, what do you think? One other big piece that I loved in how you described is that, and we all do this.
I don't mean this in any judgmental way at all. Like we all develop these ideas of what other people need. And we all, I think, probably spend a lifetime, even if we're very empathetic, but we spend a lifetime learning that actually the way that we see the world is not how other people see the world.and the things that we think other people need aren't necessarily what they actually need.
and I mentioned that because it comes up so much in these difficult conversations, or of course, like in, if we don't have information about what other people want or need, we're going to have to make something up. It's the only way. but that often makes things even more difficult.and the other bit that I have also struggled with in previous, leadership roles a lot is basically, having a perception that I'm someone who I guess says no, who quote unquote refuses to do things.
I think there is again, a cultural dynamic often in there in the U S like it's basically better come with a, I think there's. Oh yeah. This thing that a lot of bosses say is don't bring me problems, bring me solutions, that kind of stuff. It's just so much bullshit. But, where I basically at some point was told that I should be more accommodating and, instead of basically Refusing to collaborate, or whatnot.
And so it became a big thing for me as well. And, at the same time, yeah, I too only have so many hours in a day, even though I'd really guess still one more, but, So I think there's essentially, I just want to pull out the kind of themes that I'm seeing, because I feel like it's a bunch of different ones.
I think one part is perception. How are other people going to perceive basically the way that you manage your work, your teams, your organization, Because of how you say no, whether you say no and whatnot, then there's the piece like, yeah, the gender dynamics that go into this and where perception can often become even trickier.
then there's of course, like how we view ourselves. Like I'm, I love to get stuff done. I love to help other people. I want to be the person who people come to and then, make stuff happen for them. and then there's the sort of prioritization piece that comes with that as well. How do you think about priorities?
if you're in a leadership role, it then also becomes about delegation and the teams that you build versus everything relying on you as a person and your own, schedule.yeah, basically to say it's really hard, even though you would think, it's two, two letters, what could possibly go wrong? It's just the no,
[00:31:57] Nikita Rathi: it's a really tough one, but I think you already pointed out some really good tools, that, you know,I try to employ,effective delegation, like prioritization of your own, what is important to me, and, does this kind of fit with my-
[00:32:17] Lena Reinhard: Mm-Hmm.
[00:32:17] Nikita Rathi: term goals? And if it doesn't, then I think You know, you have to think about then how much energy do you actually want to invest into.
And I'm trying to remove the guilt of saying no things. Like I just got a message before I got on this call from somebody around Hey, could you please post a status update of all the bugs that are currently ongoing? And it's yes, I could, but you pay me a lot of money for, for this.
So is it also a good use of.
[00:32:49] Lena Reinhard: Mm-Hmm?
[00:32:50] Nikita Rathi: So I think, I was like respectfully, I think,it's now that those issues are sitting with different teams and like relating them will be a lot of just busy work. And I have other things that I'm thinking about right now. And I hope that works.
[00:33:05] Lena Reinhard: I don't know, but, yeah, I'm also trying to be like, Hey, is this a good use of the company's time?
Yeah. Yeah. I think. I think honestly, thinking about it as like a trade and as an economic decision is a very, I found honestly very helpful because it also depersonalizes it.yeah, another thing that I've realized it honestly works quite well is, To instead of saying no to ask more questions to try and understand what they were actually trying to do, especially when it's things like busy work or, just requests that seem outrageous. And oftentimes. It either turns out that what they're looking for can be solved with a, much, with much lower effort or in a different way that's already accessible or whatnot. And where in the end tech, I don't become the person who says no, but become the person who still helps them, but also in a way that's actually doable for me, as I find that quite elegant very often.
[00:34:03] Nikita Rathi: That's actually a really good point. I should do that a little bit more. like just understand the request a bit deeper.yeah, that's a really good point. Thank you for that tip.
[00:34:13] Lena Reinhard: of course. yeah, I found that, basically giving people a sense that you're trying to work with them, even if you can't is something that kind of sticks with folks.
saying, Hey, you know, Hey, we. You can't do this exact thing, but here's another thing like offering alternatives already. if you already understand the scope really well, that can also be really helpful. or the, to build on the trading thing, basically that you mentioned saying, Hey, yes, we can do that.
Here are the things that we would have to drop or stop doing or pause, in order to make that happen. Is that worth it for you? and then basically making it their choice, can also sometimes be nice.
[00:34:53] Nikita Rathi: Yes, such a good one. I like that a lot.
[00:34:58] Lena Reinhard: Yeah. But what if, is there anything else that you found really helpful for saying no at work or not saying no, but still refusing
Yeah, I actually found, I talked about this in my talk as well, like delaying. Helps me so much. to stalling it's, or what kind of delaying do you mean?
[00:35:18] Nikita Rathi: I guess it's this is a common, I think people pleasing tactic as well that I use a lot. and, yeah, it's, it's that in real time moments. When someone asks you for something, you immediately, the immediate, want is to say yes.
the day is hey, let me get back to you in 24 hours, or hey, let me get more information for you, and come back to you, with a definitive answer. I think this, just giving some time to process, what do I need, this is a simple thing that really helps, The no script, I think I've already mentioned that.
[00:35:53] Lena Reinhard: I also love to approach things like you said though, like how can I make this collaborative because ultimately those are the things I value, like I value collaboration a lot and I want to offer that to others because I love when people offer it to me and Yeah.
[00:36:10] Nikita Rathi: it's a very small, thin line though. it's the invisible world thing, I've definitely been that person too, who does a lot of invisible work, plan all the birthday events and go like plan all the team meetings. yes. Part of that is my job. Yes. But, there's also Hey.
How do I create better delegation tactics around it? Like a rotation. How do we, rotations are my favorite thing,
[00:36:33] Nikita Rathi: everything like rotate.
[00:36:35] Lena Reinhard: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:37] Nikita Rathi: Rotations, yeah.
[00:36:38] Lena Reinhard: No, it's the automation of a process stuff. I think.
[00:36:41] Nikita Rathi: Yeah. I think so too. And,yeah. So anyway, this is going to be an ongoing topic in, my life. I know that,
[00:36:49] Lena Reinhard: It also sounds like, one, you've had to identify that quite early on and you've also figured out a lot of ways to cope with it. even, to the point of difficult conversations, like basically, A lot of things I've been hearing from you is basically systematizing things, like making it less about having to decide in every moment, every instance, but like with difficult conversations with employees, like having, clarity, written down expectations, having regular conversations with your own kind of other instances of having to say no, like having a list of a script, a no script, or having,I kept applying your values, like making it more collaborative.
those are, I think those are really good tactics. And it sounds even though it's probably going to stay a topic in some way, you've made so much progress. it's really impressive.
[00:37:38] Nikita Rathi: yeah. Thank you. and right back at you. I think, I'm sure you've felt different kinds of challenges in every situation that you've been in. And I think, the self awareness, like that's the first step, right? sometimes like in hindsight, you can see the patterns and tell, and like,but, yeah, it sounds like you knew when you had to exit or like you knew you needed to exit and that obviously probably came from some deep introspection.
[00:38:07] Lena Reinhard: yeah,
[00:38:08] Nikita Rathi: So yeah, I also really appreciate you sharing.
[00:38:13] Lena Reinhard: same to you. This was really like, wonderful. Thank you so much. I love the things that you shared and it was very unexpected and where we went topic wise and what came up. and so valuable. So thank you so much for bringing this and bringing yourself and sharing so much about this.
[00:38:29] Nikita Rathi: Thank you.
Closing thoughts
Lena Reinhard: Thank you so much for your time and for all the insight you shared, Nikita.
I wanna emphasize a few highlights from our chat and takeaways for you who's listening right now. The thing that I can't emphasize enough is that difficult conversations are rarely about the conversation itself. They're about relationships, power dynamics, expectations met and unmet ones, and often about our own fears about how we'll be perceived.
You don't get, have to have these conversations perfect. You just need to have them. That's probably the biggest thing to keep in mind from this. Address difficult topics early before problems pile up and before your own anxiety builds. Like Nikita and I both learned, delaying these conversations only makes them harder and harder, and it can lead to patterns where you become afraid to even try having them.
So don't avoid the small, slightly uncomfortable conversations. Have them early on instead of kicking the can down the road. Beautiful idiom for avoiding them. And don't let the small issues fester and grow big. Also, create systems for caring leadership. Whether you have a script for yourself for saying no to things, some written expectations for your team or peers or regular reset conversations when things get stuck, systemize the things that are hard for you.
Don't rely on having to improvise in moments that you find difficult. And finally, remember that effective delegation isn't just about managing tasks, it's about creating rotations and processes so that the emotional labor doesn't always on the same people, including you.
We want to hear from you. Email us with your difficult conversations, questions, feedback, or topic ideas at pod@lereinhard.com. I can't promise that we'll always respond because this is an unpaid side, side quest, unfortunately, but I can promise that we read every email.
Leadership Confidential was created, produced, and presented by me, Lena Reinhard. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Esteban del Pino. Production assistance, guest support, and social media by the formidable Sly Stark.
Thank you for listening.
