Handling a Micromanager: A Real Experience and Practical Solutions (LCPS01E10)
Listen on all Podcast Platforms, like Spotify, Overcast, Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music.
Episode Summary
"The micromanager is rather someone who uses the details for control. You want to assert your own perspective on most things. You take the lead in driving projects, making decisions, taking direction, and not allowing your team any room or space to do that."
No one wants to be micromanaged, and no one wants to be told they are a micromanager. The word has negative connotations, and usually, it’s for good reason. But there's more to micromanagement than just power and control—it’s a complex issue that often stems from deeper challenges.
In this episode, Lena and her guest, Claire, go below the usual surface-level conversations surrounding micromanagement and dig into the details.
Claire shares her multi-year experience working for a C-level micromanager and how she handled challenges during that time. Together, she and Lena use this story to explore the deeper intricacies of micromanagement—unpacking the reasons behind it, strategies for addressing it when it happens to you, and how to recognize if you might be micromanaging your own team without realizing it. They also offer practical advice on giving constructive feedback to reduce micromanagement, the critical importance of setting clear expectations, and how to have a more hands-on approach to leadership without being overbearing.
Resources
Effective Skip-Level Meetings: A Guide and Templates for Managers of Managers
How to Manage Your Boss (With a Free Communication Template!)
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
05:10 Self-Awareness and Reflection on Management Styles
09:50 Defining Micromanagement and Its Impacts
19:55 Cultural Shifts and the Push for Micromanagement
30:11 Navigating Leadership Misalignment
40:12 Strategies for Managing Up and Building Trust
49:51 The Spectrum of Micromanagement and Its Contexts
***
We want to hear from you! Email us with feedback, questions, or topic ideas; I can't promise we'll always respond, but I can promise we read every email! At pod@lenareinhard.com.
Full Episode Transcript
Claire: What is one key thing that they could have focused on differently or done differently to maybe fix a lot of what was happening is just trusting the team and working with the team to work through solutions versus coming with like, “She has problems, I'm already in the problems. She is why these things are happening.” And just how we solve it and just pushing that down onto the team versus taking the team with you, know, in solving, am I doing them?
And yeah, and I think the impact of that is - In a short space of time, you have people absorb it and like, “Okay, we just kind of go do the thing.” But then you'd say just the people sort of trusting themselves, know, trusting their roles and like maybe even dock their roles over time because like this person's like owning everything. So like, what am I doing here? Or, you how can I actually grow or better myself too, even as an IC or a PM, then I just have to always just do it on top.
Lena: This is Leadership Confidential with Lena Reinhard. Real talk on more than two hard things in technology, finding community, and becoming the engineering leader you can be.
Today, micromanagers.
And as last time, I have again my wonderful producer and fabulous all things person, Sly Stark with me. Welcome back, Sly.
Sly: Hi, Lena. And hi, everyone. I'm Sly Stark. I'm an assistant for neurodivergent business owners. More importantly, though, I'm Lena's assistant and production assistant for Leadership Confidential.
Lena: It's so good to have you back.
Sly: Thank you for inviting me back.
Lena: I am very curious. What has your experience been with micromanaging, Sly?
Sly: So, you know, I was thinking about this a lot last night because I knew that we were going to have to do this recording today. And I couldn't think of a lot of situations where I had a micromanager boss.
And it dawned on me that I don't think I had the awareness to know if I had a micromanager boss or not, because I, too, myself was a micromanager. And so anytime I was probably like, probably, so basically anytime I had a micromanager boss, I probably just thought, well, they just want it this really specific way for a really good reason. Like whatever. And that's how realized I had a problem.
Lena: I do like that working on this episode together has brought that kind of level of self -awareness to your life?
Sly: Yes, you've made me do reflection. But then when I was reading Claire describing the definition of a micromanager, I was basically like, “Oh, no. Oh, no. In college I did that with every single one of my group projects. Oh no.” I made sure that I made most of the decisions. And anytime there was a pause or a lack in thought, I didn't give anyone a chance to, to have their input, or I would give people an opportunity to have their input, and then I would be like, that's great, but don't you see my idea is great and better, we should do it for these reasons.
And then I was like, no, I'm sorry Mike and Rich, my project partners for my business strategy class, thank you for dealing with it.
Well, what about you? What about you?
Lena: I think what was interesting to me was that when you and I spoke about this episode initially, I realized that in the work that you and I do together, even though I'm not your manager, but I often sort of mentioned, like, I basically catch myself trying to give you very specific instructions for something or the way that I want something to look or so. Then I often catch myself and even have said many times in our meetings like, “Oh, I don't want to micromanage you. You know how to do this. You're good at your job.”
So that's been interesting that I've realized I've had kind of even a hyper awareness around that. And I think I have a couple more things that I wanted to share about this later, but I feel like that kind of hyper awareness of like, I really don't want to micromanage people, something that a lot of managers have. And because they've themselves made experiences with being micromanaged and hated it. And unlike you, you've just only been on the other side of the power balance.
Sly: Well, like you're mentioning this, like before you continue, like you're mentioning this, but when you give me those extra instructions, like for me, it never feels like I'm being micromanaged. I don't know, maybe it's like a perception. Maybe everyone has like sort of a different perception of what it feels like to be micromanaged. For me, it's either like, Lena's just talking through what they want me to do because they're thinking about it. And that's sometimes like verbally, like expressing things helps with processing. Or like, you really do like want me to like say this certain thing because it's important to say that for like keeping the good relationship with the client or like for whatever reason. And I don't ever see that as micromanaging. I see it as just like, please like include this extra thing. It will help me like feel better about what's being said here. You know, does that make sense?
Lena: Yeah, it does. I think it's really, I think the point you made about the threshold is super interesting. And I think that's really important because my sense is also that a lot of people who've kind of made experiences with like feeling micromanaged and like not feeling great about that in the past, like are getting more sensitive to it. I think that's also a part of it.
And I will honestly admit that like for me, like speaking with Claire about this, but I've, and I've known this for a while, but like I've often been too hands-off. It's like in the sort of spectrum of sort of, is it a macro management to micro management spectrum? I don't even know.
I think actually micromanaging doesn't even have like an opposite in that sense, just realizing. But I've often like basically, yeah, been too hands-off and in a way where like, it wasn't helpful. And where I've had then issues with like holding people accountable or making sure that we're actually getting things done, or I didn't have good visibility into the work that people were doing and whatnot.
And it's like for me, it's even become a thing where I've had to essentially often tell myself to micromanage a little bit. And I'm saying that with like air quotes around it. But like what feels like micromanagement to me, or it felt like micromanagement to me was basically just like spelling out expectations very clearly, being very clear about deadlines and the things that they want, you know, the way I want results to be or what success will look like for or whatever it is.
But it's been interesting because I've realized that again, for a long time, I used to conflate micromanagement was just being specific thing here being explicit.
Sly: Yeah, well, that makes sense. I feel like if you've had an unfortunate experience with a micromanager in the past, it kind of like makes you want to take the other side of the spectrum a little bit.
Lena: Yeah.
Sly: Yeah, you get it.
Lena: And I think that's honestly, I think that's quite common and even comes up in many of these conversations we're having here that a lot of people in tech have just had pretty bad managers for most of their career at least, or even all of their career. Like I hear so often from people who basically say, like the only kind of pattern I have available to me to work off of are all the bad managers that I've had and I'm trying to do things not the way that they did. Which is, mean, like it's honestly for a long time, it used to be very similar for me. And that is a way to approach things, but it's also kind of terrible bar to work off of.
Sly: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That can make it difficult to figure out your leadership style if you're solely basing it on like, these are the things I do not need to do.
Lena: Here’s everything I'm avoiding and then we'll see what's left after that.
And so we had a really good conversation with Claire because Claire had a micromanager and would you do the honors of introducing Claire to us?
Sly: For sure. Yeah. So, everybody, our guest today is Claire. Claire's not her real name, but that's what we're going to call her this episode.
Claire's worked in software development for about 15 years. She started out as a junior software developer and over the years worked her way up into management roles like senior engineering manager, and eventually took on a role as director of product engineering. A few years ago, Claire had to navigate the experience of having a micromanager boss that was also a C-level executive. Fun.
As the head of engineering, this put Claire in a tough spot, having to choose between advocating for the needs of her team and giving into the frequent demands of the micromanager boss. Ultimately, Claire left that organization and is much happier in her current organization. So good job, Claire. Good job doing the thing that you needed to do for yourself.
And that's our guest today.
Lena: Here's to your talk on more than two hard things to technology with Claire.
Claire: What I’m here to tell about today is just, you know, a recent situation of dealing with a micromanaging boss.
We all know micromanagement is bad. The books say, “Hey, don't do it!”
Every time you speak to engineers, “What don't you want in a manager?” “I don't want a micromanager.” But today this is the first time actually experiencing firsthand, you know, seeing over time the damaging effects it can really have, like not only on this, you know, individual reporting to us person, but just throughout the whole team.
So, yeah, I thought it could be a fun topic to chat with you today about.
Lena: I think so too. And I'm really, I'm excited to dig more into your experiences because, yeah, as you said, everyone says that micromanagement is not good. We shouldn't do it. And yet for some mysterious reason, I regularly still speak with leaders at different levels who say, know, my boss is micromanaging me.
So I'd love to start with some definitions because I feel like that term gets potentially also used in different ways. So how do you define a micromanager?
Claire: Good question. I think just the word micromanagement people maybe assume, well, it's just the boss who's in the details. Someone who wants to know context of what I'm doing and be involved in the micro details of your work.
But I just, think it's more than that. I think you can be a manager in the details, where you're using the details to coach your team, to get context, to know when to course-correct in certain situations. But to me, the micromanager is rather someone who uses the details for control. You want to assert your own perspective on most things. You take the lead in driving projects, making decisions, taking direction, and not allowing your team any room or space to do that.
Lena: One thing that I find interesting about this definition is that one, people may think that someone is a micromanager and there can be an impression that they can, hey, my boss is micromanaging me, but that's not necessarily the case. The differentiating factor that I heard from you is basically, this person is then going to just basically take the work on themselves or make the decisions themselves?
So it's not about, instead of asking for visibility, for example, or for transparency, things like that.
Claire: Oh no, not at all. I mean, you know, as a manager, you can't really do your job, you know, without some level of visibility. It's usual transparency in what's going on in the team.
So no, I don't think it's that at all. And either, I think something we've also discussed, you know, once before is around sometimes as a manager, like this clarity of why you need these things. So if you need visibility or more information, somebody knows why you're asking for it and why you need to know it. It's better received and it's not just because. I often when things, decisions get made or things get asked just because, you know, that's when sort of the micromanager part, I think, starts coming in. Because it's just because you worked it as a boss, not because it actually makes sense to me as a direct report. Yeah
Lena: And in preparing for a conversation, I was also thinking about what unifies those kind of micromanagers. It's really like the micro part to me is the most interesting. It's basically that someone's working at the wrong level. Or it becomes a bit of a “get off my lawn” situation. Like honestly, micromanagement can also exist in peer relationships.
For example, I've sometimes experienced it in collaborations with product, when it's not the classical differentiation or the classical setting being, you know, product owns the why and the what and then engineering owns the how are we going to build this. But then, you know, some product managers who have really strong ideas for how exactly something should be implemented on a very regular basis and kind of try and push those things through and aren't open to others’ ideas. Or of course, the kind of classic thing of like a manager working in the quote-unquote, wrong context or at the wrong level in the sense of taking on lower level decisions, tasks, things that other people technically have the subject matter expertise and the skills for, but instead they're kind of lowering their own kind of operational level.
Claire: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that's very true. I think it does occur in those areas. Yeah. And I think, especially in this context I've come from, at least we were in a very small team.
I generally imagine that happens even more, but in the sense of everyone really caring about, like engineers who did care about actually also what we're building. Our product managers do really care about how we're building it because like every small decision matters. Every priotization decision really matters in a sort of a smaller team.
And I think sometimes where these things go wrong is when, you know, people share their perspectives across sort of domains or across areas and they may be not sound like they're actually heard or taken into account. There's something else I really believe a lot of is, even if you're going to be that boss you still want things to be done your way. As long as your team feels like you actually listen to their perspective, you know, it's taken into account, you care about it. And if you don't always go with it, sometimes that's okay. You know, and as long as it's clear of like, yes, I heard you and now I'm not doing it.
And I think that also often goes across at a peer level, but also the same thing. So the works across. And I think you made an important call out there that like micromanagement doesn't just have to come from distrust. Like we'll probably talk about trust a bunch, but it can be out of really good intentions of like, I've seen people do it because they see a project go off the rails and they want to kind of save the day and make sure that things still get done for a client or for a release or they're jumping in to help on an incident because they, you know, they think they are in a position to actually help out.
So I think that oftentimes like, it's coming from good motivations. Like we, of course, like we can't entirely speculate like what motivated your boss, but I think that's also important call out. Because it's so often perceived as really negative and it's kind of inhibiting people's space. And I guess those things are true, but at the same time, it's not necessarily motivated out of pure evil.
Claire: More than that, it's not out of pure evil. Yeah, everyone needs to do their best. Everyone's trying to do the best job, like build the best product we can. I mean, it's never really, I'm here to do harm and take a look at other people.
Lena: Like no one gets up in the morning says I'm going to do a really bad job today. That is my mission.
Claire: Exactly. And diminish other people in the team.
Lena: Exactly. Put other people down. That is what I'm, yeah, this Monday is really going to be the day when that happens.
So I'd love to briefly set the context for the environment. All of this micromanagement happened in, so you already mentioned it's a small company. Anything else that you can share about, you know, the company, your role in it?
Claire: Yeah. I mean, this was a small team. We relied on profitability to grow and to make changes in our team. We had like 80, 90 employees overall and roughly half of that was like engineering product design.
The company for many years was experiencing sort of a decline in growth and obviously like at an executive level, senior leadership level, there was this massive desire for change, you know, to turn around this sort of growth trajectory.
A new CPO joined our team and upon arrival, he brought a lot of changes, including the team reorg, you know, in the first few months of the team. In their first few months, too, like many executives actually met the team and, you know, the reason why was shared, but like the team kind of knew underlying sort of dynamics actually going on. And, and I think from very early on the sort of boss that we had, the team sort of had this sort of fear of like, you're either with them, you're either support them and go along with their directions or you're out. Or even a sort of be scrutinized and extra scrutinized and sort of have sort of eyes on you as an employee.
Yeah, I'm in situation where I like, I reported to this boss as like a head of product engineering role. They managed myself and the product engineering team. So they sort of basically oversaw engineering and product at the executive level.
Yeah, nothing, you know, over time, we just had many changes in the team. We sort of had many, a few different shifts of cultural things we tried from, you know, trying to define like accountability and like how do we help people accountable to results. This is maybe like rewarding for inputs, you know, like how do we start shifting to rewarding for outcomes as a means to drive change. And I think where we ended up over the course of like the few years was it ended up becoming like accountability became blame mechanism for sort of people and to be at fault.
So it was never really looked at as having tier goals and holding people accountable to those goals. But also accountability being like, learning, adapting in better. It was almost like finding fault in blame. And a lot of people got the blame for things versus like systematic thing, looking at what's actually causing this. And yeah, just by the time, know, it's a few of these shifts like growth still wasn't massively moving.
So we started having this sort of push, top down push from executive team, just where like managers need to be more in the details. You know, so that actually became more of an aggressive push of, you know, things aren't working, managers in the details, all go to the hands -on, even to the executive level and like CEO working close to projects and working first with teams.
But every time this sort of happened, you know, as you can imagine, they could often cause a slow to projects, diminished sort of decision-making of a team, because in the end we had to now give run-by to the executives. Or run to them and often product decisions were being slow and in these cases it's okay for things to take slow and time to be made, but there's other times it's like, no, why are we going so slow? Work faster. You know, there was a sort of conflict in the team sort of that built up over time. And I think for the team, the biggest thing was just yet nothing ever felt good enough. Everyone was giving their best. Everyone was shifting and molding to the changes, doing what was asked of them, but it just didn't feel good enough.
And the more sort of forseeing a need, is pushed control into the details. I think it more just sort of exaggerated the anxiety and happiness and stressing the team. And yeah, this happened over a course of like two, three years.
Yeah, like I think we're sort of, even now, like the team has sort of gotten to a point of like just hanging up and everyone's just starting to really stick up about it. And it's just almost come to might. I think the struggle for the team has been going through.
Lena: And what's really striking to me is that, how you just describe kind of these cultural shifts and dynamics and that like, it sounds like I do want to talk more about kind of the impact all of this had on you and kind of your ability as like a senior leader to do your work. But like how even, you know, in the culture changes, there was at some point this push for everyone to kind of become more of a micromanager to, you know, for engineering managers to be really hands on in the teams and really be like looking sort of hawkeye style at like what is going on around them. That's like, I find like, yeah, really striking in how you just shared that.
Claire: Exactly. And I think it was. The biggest struggle too with the team is that this was just so opposite the culture of the company and the culture that the company has sort of been working hard, you know, to work, to build over time. And that culture being sort of a culture of people first. Culture of good work-life balance and a culture of really like, yeah, like sponsoring, supporting, developing growth of individuals, finding opportunities for them to lead.
And yeah, I think this just went against everything, yeah, the team sort of knew or was and of course, a lot of friction. I think also it wasn't ever really stated clearly that this is what we need to do or why. Again, it was just an aggressive, like now this is just what we need to do. You know, and I think because there had been declining growth in the early days, I mean, think a lot of the team, including myself, you know, though like, well, actually maybe for now, this is just the way we're - Maybe we do need to turn around growth and we all want the company to succeed. So maybe we do need this kind of leadership. I think it was initially again, like absorbed, accepted, and like, you know, we were all kind of doubting a little bit of, is this the right way to be, you know? Yeah. And I think, you know, let it go for a period of time and yeah, eventually it took its toll.
So after many years realizing this is not the way to be, it's really, yeah, good management practices, yeah, how you build autonomy is there for a reason.
Lena: Yeah. It's so interesting to me though, that it almost sounds like, you know, there was this, you know, the culture as you described it with like a lot of emphasis on ownership and what like things that a lot of people would call really positive values or positive goals. But at the same time, it almost sounds like kind of a response to that. I don't know where the causations and correlations are, of course, you know, where I'm bringing this up or mentioning it because I've seen this a couple of times that basically organizations are really, you know, going really strongly on the whole idea of like, what makes a high performing team? How do we cultivate that culture and whatnot? But then they don't get the results that they were hoping this would achieve. And then you see this huge backlash with like, a lot of micromanagement or executives really, know, pulling in really strict guidelines and things like that. I mean, I think a lot of return to office, like situations that have been going on are kind of in a similar vibe where you get these kind of really strong cultures in one direction. Then you see this backlash that's kind of really over-correcting into the opposite side.
Like, I don't want to judge, you know, what the… No, actually I do want to judge what the reasons are, like oftentimes basically being assumed that, know, for example, driving towards like high performing autonomous teams is wrong. Like it's not necessarily wrong. It's just also something that's really, really hard to do. And that requires a lot of work and many companies fail to do that work. And then they think things aren't working out because the teams are, you know, autonomous or something like that. Sorry, I'm rambling a bit, but that was just, it stood out to me as like really interesting as a dynamic.
Claire: It's so true. I mean, I would tell you the teams are not autonomous. I think sometimes it feels, it can feel as those bosses especially who want control. That autonomy, people first culture means also that we're not working hard or that we're not high performing. And I think it's a push of like, well, we just need people to work harder. And that couldn’t be further from the truth.
So I suppose you always go to ask yourself like, what could working harder look like? Or how could you prove that this methods are working and that the teams are actually giving everything, you know, but you just have a different way of doing it. Or people are motivated. I think just another point is just when, like with the shift and all of this pushing.
So yes, I think it's about trust in the team, but I think it's also sometimes misalignment of just like, or not truly respecting what true motivation looks like for people. You know, then that like, you know, you get the best out of your employees when they're actually motivated and bought in. And made this work like, high performing autonomous owning teams, but brings in and strive for.
Whereas the style that also started coming in our company was just maybe this motivates you. I don't care. Like I'm going to change your job description and you just need to do what I tell you. And that just shows a complete lack of just understanding of like humans and how humans work and how you get the best out of somebody.
Lena: So you were reporting to this C-level leader who came in and made these changes.
How did you recognize that this person is a micromanager? What were the symptoms that you saw?
Claire: I think just from very early on, to me the biggest one was, when we wanted to make some of the even very first old changes. Like I wasn't in my current role, in the role of like, head of product engineering. I was an engineering manager role, so I was less involved in the decisions. But I was much more involved in decisions where a lot of the team was pushing back and just saying like, why are we doing this? Like, this doesn't actually make sense. Even from engineering, like this just doesn't make sense. Even over to like our architecture, you know, it's just going to cause more complications and more confusions.
And that sort of feeling of just, it didn't really care, you know, like how the team felt and they merely cared to understand what implications it could have. It was just these are the things I think we must do and we did them. And it just didn't feel like there was the consideration of like, what is the impact? You know, what else should we be considering with these changes? When I think, yeah, I think that initially started it.
And then also with some other changes, for some like in my executive team, I can say much fear of like you either with us or out. I think that just speaks a lot to you, almost like that micromanager, that sort of asserts their control and their perspective, their decisions and what they want to do.
Lena: Did you notice that in the conversations you were having, or was it because so many other leaders left early on after that person had joined? How did that show up?
Claire: Both. So, yes, conversations again. Small team, people talk.
Yeah, and like everyone talks behind closed doors and in DMs, like, you know, what's going on? And this is what we think. And it's actually often was actually like a hard to, I think, yeah, hard to put everyone to really get on top of it. I think that's just sort of where it started already on, very early on.
Lena: And so to kind of, come with an idealized version of how things can work. You were a senior leader in this relatively small company, which also means that typically I would expect someone in your position would, yeah, have a lot of, you know, do a lot of gap filling across the place. Probably roles can be a bit blurry. Everyone's just kind of scrambling a bit to get things done. You probably had some managers supporting to you as well at some point when you moved into your head of position, there's still like, you're reporting to a C-level person, which then typically also means you would have a lot of, I’m going to call it autonomy, even though it's like an overused word in this context.
But you would have a lot of autonomy, you would make a lot of decisions, basically, it can run things for before engineering or for your part of engineering. And sure, still like make sure your boss, the C-level, CPO is in the loop, that's like, you're basically keeping them in the loop so that they can go off and do other things. That's usually one of the main reasons why someone like you would have or why that kind of position you had exists.
I heard already that things weren't exactly that way. But so, you know, what did that mean for like, your ability to do your job? It sounds like your job also changed over time. Like how did all of this impact you?
Claire: Yeah. I mean, it was really difficult. And I think, you know, when I first sort of stepped into this role of head of engineering, I came in with my perspective of things that I wanted to do differently. Or things that we wanted to change. And I mean, I've focused a lot on that but I almost felt like I kept getting sort of sidetracked or pulled into like these other things, you know, that generally always became more important.
You know, part of also the early sort of micromanagement and signs with this boss, like I always sort of had this sort of guard in working with them. And I felt that my role like almost needed to be like protecting my engineering team, you know, and sort of doing my thing to sort of drive some changes in how we work. And one of them being a little bit like more attention to sort of engineering excellence, engineering clarity.
We were already a team focused on just like shipping, delivering, product minded. And we did need some shifts and like the focus was, you know, how do we do that? But it was just, yeah, it was a little difficult being pulled into other things, you know, which maybe wasn't even as important. My role became a lot about like fighting fires, than taking in perspectives, trying to balance the perspective, maybe kind of get more context, trying to sort of feedback the right information that wasn't going to cause more harm.
And it was incredibly stressful. And almost felt like my autonomy, my role and the impact that I could actually have on the team and what I could do just started slowly diminishing more and more over time. And as time went on and as even the aggression of like managers in the details came in, even that it just became harder to actually do what I needed to do because I felt like what the team needed from me just wasn't that.
And it was so conflicted because I just couldn't actually do things I believed the team needed, which was actually a lot of the times, bringing clarity of what we expect, bringing clarity of, you know, what does- how performance look like? You know, we want to talk about raising the bar, but what does that look like to the team. And you know, bringing it into more concrete details. But it was hard because that was never anything that was important, you know, to this executive. So I could be doing that, but I would almost be sort of scrutinized for doing my job and not doing these other things.
And truth is, I kind of fought it for some time and then eventually I was just like, okay, I'm just not gonna do the things that I think the team needs for a little bit of time and just do what the bosses want. But yeah, I could do that for a few months or anything and I just couldn’t. They're just not my personality, they're not my style, and I care too much about the team to actually be that person.
Lena: So it also sounds like there was a fundamental misalignment between like essentially what you thought the team needed, like clarity and clear expectations, versus what your boss thought. And so like you couldn't get your boss to agree with the things that you'd saw as relevant and as priorities and instead basically became a person who would just execute on the things that your boss was kind of deciding.
Claire: Yeah, exactly. A very big misalignment. And I think also, and really misalignment in that leadership style. And I think like every, for every, the way they work was almost everything that just like completely opposite in that, like my pet peeves. Even the things of having an opinion and, you know, I assert my opinion in many different contexts. Often it's a harmful opinion without actually like getting with details first. So like, yes, we can have these views, but just make sure it's correct.
You know, get the context, find some examples and not just sort of make assumptions and sort of need from the top. So I think it also was an interesting dynamic way where, you know, being in the details, being in the details of the project, like the push was there. But when it came to like the systematic perspective or understanding people, there was none of that in the details. That was more just, do what you were told. Obviously, we're thinking about better, especially for managers who are in the details. And how important it is to find times when you can also be in the details when it comes to sharing cheer for your team, not just cheer for the product.
Because to be able to work effectively in details of your projects, it's all about that trust. You need trust. And even in this case, lot of the time we're like, why aren't people pushing back on us? We want people to have that conversation. We want to be, you know, but it's kind of like, well, we want to be challenged. You it's got to be, you we're working with you, not telling you what to do. And you know, you can tell yourself that, but there is hierarchy always exists and you have to be extra cautious of building the trust if that is what you're going to do.
And we actually have even a perfect scenario that came up in the last few weeks where I sort of recommended like, well, why don't you take this topic and actually go meet with the people, show that you care, talk about it on a Zoom call. Share your perspective and that just be involved in people topics where people actually care about. And this was one that related to sort of anxiety and struggles from some engineers. And the response was, no, like, managers need to own that. They need to own my perspective and they need to share the story downward. And I'm like, well, you're- fine, that's your decision, but you can't choose sometimes to lead with hierarchy and sometimes not to. Like it just doesn't work.
Lena: That's a good point. Yeah. It's like, if you're micromanaging, at least do it sort of consequentially.
Claire: Yeah, exactly. It's very selective, you know, when you’re gonna micromanage. Yeah. And almost like those selective times, just like when people feel like it's stomping on turf, you know, and you just- sort of without that deeper connection and trust, which often hierarchy does break in the team or like.
Lena: The nature of it. Absolutely. So you worked with this boss for a couple of years. You mentioned when we previously spoke about this, there were many different things that you've tried to kind of deal with the situation.
What approaches, tactics, tools, anything? What did you try to handle this, improve things?
Claire: I mean, I think in the early days, it was a different kind of approach of taking the blame, absorbing problems and just running with it with the team in my own way.
You know, protecting the team. Taking the blame and absorbing problems and protecting the team in a number of things. And I think what I did there, which was also that wasn't ideal was I didn't include the manager in often my decisions and why I was doing certain things or even often exactly what I was doing. And I think, you know, knowing, you know, that they do have the strong micromanagement tendencies.
And if I had to go back again, you know, you need to make sure that you're doing it, lead this person in your decisions. It doesn't often have to be like, what do you think? And like, I don't know what I'm doing. It could just be, here’s what I'm doing and if you don't agree, you know, tell me and we can talk about it. But I actually didn't really do that. I sort of, this is my responsibility. And I also try to sort of tread the line of if, I sort of ask too much, then you're not doing a good enough job. You know, like your job is to be head of and you take control and you like, not, you like take the lead and all the different things.
And I did that. And quite early on now also I received feedback of just not being vulnerable enough, you know, with this boss and I need to be more open with them. So that was picked up also and wasn't sort of as well received. And yeah, so then I started sort of being more open, sharing more thoughts, more challenge, sometimes sort of just things I'm seeing people related. But honestly, depending on the moment, especially when this leader was sort of more stressed, that also didn't always work well because they would sort of hear something, not sort of be curious and ask questions back, and then jump to your assumptions.
So, you know, it was so hard. I had to really sort of tread that line of, what do I share? When do I share it and how? And I think a lot of it maybe also came down to how I would share it. So I had to be really strategic in sort of like, share the problem, just something I'm noticing, and I'm solving it in this X, Y, Z way. Or even start with like just something I'm focusing on solving. Then the problem, so that I didn't sort of jump to, well, why are you bringing this to me and making this my problem? And then that was never the intention, of course, but you want me to share more with you, so I'm going to just share all the things. And I'm not sharing it because I want you to own it. But often things would be read that way.
Lena: But sort of like, you had to be really clear with your own intentions and like sharing context for what you were doing and all.
Claire: Yeah, exactly. And really trying to make sure you de-bug any sort of, any gray area, you know.
Lena: Right. Was that in writing or was that in your meetings or both?
Claire: A bit of both. And I think in writing actually probably would have been better first. I tended to lean into the meeting. A bit of both actually, I think in the meeting, just because you could also read the response and the reaction and you could sort of control the narrative. Whereas if it's, if it's async or in writing, you can't, you don't read. So I think a bit of both is better. So almost like you could share something in our one-on-one doc just before we jump on a call, that could be the thing we jump on a call in this kind of is written.
And I think, I mean, and that’s definitely helped and it was a bit better, but honestly like, I had a lot of stress to me. My days were spent thinking about like, how do I manage this information upward and like, am I gonna do it correctly? And that's also just not fine. We all want bosses, you know, we all want managers that we can just come to in our rarest form and like, you can work together and, you know, solve the problem and brainstorm together.
And, but I think, you know, you just got to also realize when your boss is just not that person. And other tactics, head leadership coach at the time. And just, you could be that find someone or some way to just have that space, but you're not going to get it from your boss, you know, where you can brainstorm with somebody or, you know, help someone, help friend or merits, but it's yeah. Just know you’re not going to get that from your boss.
I know things I also tried were sort of with the engineering team. Trying to sort of own what we could have control of. So we might not be able to control product prioritizations or small decisions within the product, but we could 100% and should be controlling how we build it, our engineering quantity, how we implement our features. So almost trying to also frame where people were feeling like they losing autonomy in some ways, like how can we find that in other ways?
And I think that was quite effective. That also really worked quite well. And in the last thing was also just as much as possible, like with metrics and data to try and debunk some viewpoints or show progress or improvement on topics.
This one especially worked best when it came to concerns about execution or- But it was often obviously quite hard when it comes to sort of, people, cause you could share, you know, just, you know, some examples of where someone is. I don't know, like taking ownership and they're doing really well. But it's often hard to sort of debunk or overlook something else, you know, that someone's concerned about or like a framing.
So, but yeah, if you can have metrics examples, like care examples, it really does help. Because it's hard for somebody to really push back against something concrete.
Lena: And the kind of misalignment between you and your boss, was that ever about basically, you know, what goals you're pursuing as a company or, know, what strategy is there? Or was it much more about the how, you know, how changes are made or how, yeah, how the organization is set up, things like that? So where was the breakdown the most if you have a pattern there?
Claire: Yeah, from a strategy perspective. We were often, yeah, it was the how. It was always the how and yeah, it was about the how and a lot of them were actually about that sort of topic of blaming people for things that are going wrong versus looking a bit deeper into maybe why someone is behaving a certain way or why someone doesn't have ownership when, you know, obviously like basically this whole chat. There's maybe reasons why the team were starting to feel that like ownership and drive and, you know, productivity. So yeah, it was often the how and performance of teammates and people.
Lena: And were you able to speak about things like that? You know, when, for example, you know, just mentioned something, hey people, yeah, aren't feeling ownership or they could use some clarity.
What happened when you brought those things to your boss and had recommendations for how to fix them?
Claire: The initial reaction was often like aggressive pushback. Like, what do you mean? I saw this thing and I'm like, why are you trying to tell me? Yeah. And I think that was often like a default response, which also made it quite hard. There were times also when they would sort of be like, okay. It never often ever felt like really agreeing, but letting you go with something.
They gradually and then something happens and like their whole sort of their own narrative gets pushed back onto like the topic or the framing.
So that's also where I said about like, you know, yes, okay, like the gradually agree, but also in those moments when I also felt like they wouldn't actually understand what you were doing. You know, they never actually sort of asked any necessarily like any questions of like, okay, like, why are you saying this? Like, what are you doing? It was almost just like topics that they were passing and really cared about and that were pushed on you said, you know, give me the importance also never really had enough time and space to actually tune in, like talk about it, you know. Agree, understand each other's perspectives. It was more just that conception.
Lena: It also sounds like, honestly, the two of you just also cared about very different things.
Claire: I think so, yes.
Lena: And had very different views on like, you know, how to like- I think you even mentioned that you had differences in leadership style earlier, but even in terms of what things are important, what things make a good team, what are the topics to watch out for and whatnot. What I've heard from you is basically somewhat of a disinterest or caring less about many of those aspects that you found quite important.
Claire: And truth be told, I think we were both our opposite in both ways. I think like, if we could have found a way to make it work and have an alignment, we could have both brought the yin and the yang, strengths to each other's weaknesses. But we just didn't find that better, stronger collaboration for that to happen.
Lena: Are there things that you wish you'd done differently in managing up?
Or in dealing with the whole situation, or that you wish you'd done worse?
Claire: Yeah, yeah. I wish I had been stronger in sharing my perspective and pushing back on certain things and trusting my own perspective in many circumstances. I think that like, I know that like aggressive pushback doesn't work for me and I'm someone who will just like, you know, like hear it and then sort of like fizzle into the corner and like, you know, try to sort of, you know, move forward and own it. And I think had, I don't think that was also healthy. So like, I think just, you know, really sort of being confident and trusting and like my own opinions and perspective and push back kind of harder. I think I would have done in hindsight.
And sort of almost you know as like senior engineering leaders we're also just people you know we also still feel that same job security and job safety. And yeah I think if that was not the case I could have definitely been more aggressive. And sometimes you've got to ask yourself like in these roles- You almost kind of need to put your own fears aside and do what's best for the team. And then and I do regret a little bit of not doing that.
Lena: And were you able to give feedback to your boss about their management style?
Claire: Yeah, definitely. That was another one… and how it was affecting the team. I mean, there were times when I did try, but probably not hard enough. So quite honestly, no, I actually didn't. And another thing that I also probably should have done is if I didn't feel safe to even do that, you know, as a, in my role, spoken to sort of our HR team.
Even then, I think there was sort of a strange dynamic where the executive team was felt to really be supporting this, you know, and this was the change the company needed. I actually didn't even know if that was a good space to be, or if that would also kind of put you on like, you're just not aligned… off-balance. And this doesn't actually isn’t going to be well-received. Yeah.
Lena: Fair, I get it. Like a small company. Yeah. Understandable question to ask yourself. So I really liked all the recommendations that you've already shared for things that you've tried.
Do you have any advice for anyone else dealing with a micromanaging boss?
Claire: I think just, I mean, number one is just, you know, as much as you can, like ensure expectations are clear enough. But often that's hard because in this case, and I'm sure probably most, the reason why someone needs to control the details is because they are not very good at telling the expectations and holding somebody to it.
They're kind of… there along the way, so they need to control the details because they don’t really have that. They're really terrified. But I think it really is important to do that. I think even for myself, it would have saved me a lot of regular stress. Instead of me making assumptions of like, what is expected of me and what I should do. I think if you know your boss is a micromanager, like I said, what helped for me was like, it was strategically like managing information and so the figuring out what you need to share. And what is the right level of, you know, of transparency and listen… Decisions you make that they should just know about it. And you of course want to keep them from, you know, being caught off guard. The metrics as much as possible. And I think the truth be told, like for me, the number one thing is like pay attention to your own narrative of the situation, like your happiness, your motivation. And, you know, if you find yourself like I was like just stuck in this sort of all your energy is being sort of done on pleasing the boss and it actually is incredibly draining on you. Just, and you're not enjoying what you're doing over time, it's just beyond that. It's probably your time for a change. And rather make the change before it's too late.
Often like the last thing you want to do is get into a state of burnout, not enjoying your team. You know, things are probably unlikely to change, you know, and you may, you're probably unlikely to drastically change how you work. They're not going to drastically change how they work.
And yeah. Make a decision before you feel burnt out, doubting your role, doubting if even this is the job you want. And I mean, I think I was almost at that stage myself. And I know a few of the product team also reported into this person almost stating the same thing, like, this is going to be my last stint in tech. I don't think I've got the energy to deal it with anymore.
And that's just a horrible placee to be. So like, pay attention to yourself and what you actually need to sort of be healthy and sort of stay in the career and continue to work on your journey.
Lena: And like, how do you find out if basically, you know, is the problem like my boss who I'm reporting to or are there things that I'm doing wrong that are kind of causing my boss to act this way? You know, is it kind of a, is it a me problem? Like what's, what's helped you with that?
Claire: Now, I mean, I think the… are always noble at first. You know, I think I know that also like with this boss, you know, might have often sometimes lack of managing up and sharing the details only sort of exacerbates it sort of the aggression and wanting more. And yeah, and these other sets of things that they could have changed to make it easier. So I think those are wearing yourself a bit of both ways. And the maybe this also just asking yourself is, do you want to be different and make the changes that you almost, you almost know yourself that you need to be making?
So it's often a little bit of both. And if you really are motivated and you know, you want to sort of take those shifts or like it is me and I can make these improvements. That's amazing. Then like go for it and do it and try. But I do think that if this is raised, it still doesn't change. You know, often you do different things. Yeah, it could be the boss or just the dynamics. Sometimes to get a thought in-person. It's just that dynamics just isn't really working. And what you need from each other just isn't there.
Lena: And I just remembered also a point that you even called out earlier around, sure maybe I technically, I could become a leader that just executes on what I'm being told by my boss but that's just not the way that I want to work. Which then also kind of marks the line.
Claire: Yeah.
Lena: I think that was a good call out as well.
Claire: Yeah, exactly.
Lena: Nice. This was really great. Like anything else that you want to share on this or anything that we haven't talked about that you want to bring into it?
Claire: I mean, I actually just want to just sort of mention this a little bit earlier that- Just like that extra thoughts on like micromanaging, being in the detail, leadership style. I mean, I just think like it's really important as like leaders to know your own inherent sort of default style. And if you are going to work in the details, just really paying attention to this and that you just find the ways to build that extra self safety guard or clarity for a team just almost compensates.
And like, I think it's okay sometimes to be that micromanager boss. There are times when you have to control this, but just know the consequences and know other things and other areas where you can find that focus. That is really important is really important. And maybe if, you know, the trust in the team is just inherently not something that, or trust from the team or that sort of close people connection, is that something that you necessarily yourself like wants to do or you struggle with?
It honestly- maybe be honest and just don't be in the details, you know, find a way to manage from a distance. So I really do think like how you work with the team also really depends so much on like your inherent style. And it's probably not either right or wrong. It's just knowing how to use your own, like how to make the best situation like for yourself as a leader, like knowing your strengths and weaknesses.
Lena: It's a tool, it's sure it could maybe be something that you gravitate towards a bit more, but at the same time, as you said, some situations just need it. Sometimes you do need to be more involved or have much tighter visibility or even actually be in control, even of things that are at a lower level.
Then, as you said, at least make it transparent. Tell people, this is what I'm doing. Also, here's a plan for how we're going to get out of this. So now I'm going to get out of everyone’s hair again.
Claire: Exactly.
Lena: It can be a tool. It's kind of, it sounds like from what you said, if it's more kind of just the way that you work and it also is kind of the only way that you're able to work, then that's a problem and it can become a problem with any leadership style.
Claire: Exactly. Yeah. that's another framing. Thank you for the reword that that's really great. And I think also just even if it is a tool and when you lean into it, I just, be aware of the impact it can have in other areas. And just pay attention to that and don't just think like, yeah, I'm just applying this tool now and everything is going to be fine. So just just be aware of what you're doing, I think is the thing.
Sly: Okay, Lena so how are you feeling about the topic today?
Lena: I think the part that I really enjoyed was that we were able to assess the spectrum of micromanagement.
Ultimately, a big part of it is that people can perceive this in very different ways.
Like you mentioned earlier in our intro as well, that there is a threshold that people have and that can vary quite greatly. And yes, micromanagement overall isn't ideal.
The way that I like to frame this sometimes to clients who I, at least, have the impression are doing it is that I tell them. Lke, listen, why do you still have employees in your teams? And why are you paying people if you're doing it all yourself anyway? And I think that's an important consideration. And I do honestly really appreciate also the way that Claire shared, the way that it impacted her because it really put a cap really on her ability to even be a leader in a lot of ways.
So Sly, what stood out to you from what Claire shared?
Sly: I think I just came away with more questions about micromanager bosses because Claire is dealing with the situation of, I think she had a reorganization once they brought on this new C-level person and their leadership style was just not the leadership style that Claire had. And to me, I'm thinking if this guy keeps getting upset at Claire, she's not the only one this is happening to.
At what point do these people realize that they're a micromanager or not? Do they just think that like everyone below them just sucks? Or is there like a point of like awareness where they realize what they're doing? Like have you ever ran into that? Like either with your coaching clients or just like in the wild where someone like actually realizes like, “Oh no, that's why all this is happening.”
Lena: I think that is a really good question. I don't think that people intentionally micromanage. But I honestly think what you just alluded to was really astute in that sometimes people really think that everyone else just kind of sucks or that they don't get it. And that essentially the only way to get things done and the only way to really know what's going on or that is to be in it at all times. And so I do think in my experience with people who honestly have those kinds of tendencies, there really is that they believe that this is the tool for making things happen. And oftentimes it's also that they really struggle or don't really have a lot of alternative tools available to them.
Because the alternative to micromanagement is setting expectations very clearly.
Checking in regularly on how things are progressing, making sure that you know where things are going and that people really understand. So there is a lot of not just communication and ensuring that people understand. It’s a critical part of that communication, but there's also like having to follow up and kind of still like, yes, stay on top of things. But a lot of it is also about expressing expectations really clearly. And honestly, many people really struggle with that.
Sly: That's a good point. Okay. I also have a question about something Claire was doing basically to kind of appease this micromanager boss. At first, she was trying to kind of like push for the things that she thought needed to happen or the, you know, a better way of doing things.
And then eventually try to take like the other position of just doing what this person said and like neither was really working. So what do you do when you're put in that position? Cause it feels like no matter what you do, it's, you are never going to be doing like the right thing.
Lena: I honestly think that's often the outcome. I think a big part of the work that Claire tried to do was also like raise awareness around this at some point. Like get people to like give feedback to her boss's boss, talk to other senior people in the organization to also understand, know, is it just her who's having those experiences? It turned out it wasn't. And another part was then like, trying to give feedback and the feedback didn't land very well.
And ultimately Claire left the organization and, in my experience, it's unfortunately quite often the outcome. And I think it sucks, but I also do understand it.
Sly: To me, it seems like a common thread of all micromanagers is a need for control. Does that sound right in your experience?
Lena: I would say yes. I do think that it's worth noting that like control is often associated as like a really negative thing that like, you know, someone seeming controlling or so like a lot of people have negative associations with that.
Sly: I think I know what you mean though. It's like an inherent human thing that you need to feel like you have some control over what's going on.
Lena: And yeah, that's a good way to put it. And I think an additional factor is often that a lot of leaders work in somewhat chaotic or fast changing companies are going through strategy changes or just growing really fast or so. That's when, in an environment like that where already a lot of things are in flux and then maybe it's even a remote or hybrid place, where it can be hard to feel like you actually have a really good sense of everything that's going on. And that also means that in an environment where there are only like, there's only a limited number of things you can actually control. can even basically the need to exert some sort of control in areas where you feel like you can do that. Like for example, with the people reporting to you. That can even be a bit more kind of tempting even.
Sly: Okay. That's a really good answer. Okay. So with that said, how do you think a leader could feel like quote-unquote in control without over micromanaging?
Lena: I think a big part is how you set expectations for the people that are working with you. I have a couple articles on my website that we'll put into the show notes. One is about pushing information to your boss. It's something that you can give to the leaders or teams that are reporting to you. It's a quite simple thing, but it's structured to help them on a weekly basis give you an overview of what's going on. Another thing you can do is have better conversations with the people working for you.
Like we've mentioned, I think earlier that a lot of people struggle with expressing expectations. that's something that comes up in podcasts, honestly, in various episodes. But check in with yourself. Like what are the areas where you feel like you have, you don't have a good sense of what's going on? Is this, for example, in terms of, how are we progressing against our goals? Like not just, work is happening, but is it the right work? So that also means there's maybe a component where you have to understand better, what are the people around me prioritizing?
It's like understanding either examples or areas where you don't have the visibility that you need and then asking people to share those things with you more intentionally can be a really good start for them. And the templates that we're going to share are some that a lot of people I work with have tried and have used really successfully, I've implemented them. And those are really good starting points.
Sly: What does it take for a micromanager leader to understand that they're micromanaging?
Lena: I think that can be a really hard one because I again, like to the point, you know, you made earlier in terms of like, there an element of control? I think not a lot of people want to see themselves as controlling because it's also so negatively connotated. I do think a couple of ways for you to just check in on that because I also know like most managers don't really want to be micromanagers.
One thing is to ask your reports, like you don't have to straight on ask them. Do you think I'm a micromanager? That question might give you some honest answers, but it might also not. But you can also ask, how do you feel about our work together? What's your sense in terms of, do you have the autonomy that you need to really lead and own the area that you're working in? How do you feel about our communication? Do you have a sense that we are well aligned? Are there things that are missing for you? How is the reporting that you're doing to me going for you.
Basically use aspects that are going into the idea of quote-unquote micromanaging around to get communication alignment. Autonomy is another big one that I think when people feel threatened in that area, they tend to ascribe it to micromanagement tendencies quite quickly. Another thing you can do is ask your boss, assuming that your boss does skip level meetings with your direct report, they might get some insight into, you know, how your reports are feeling, those are probably the biggest starting points.
I think ultimately there is a piece where it's also worth doing some introspection around, like ask yourself, know, do I have the visibility that I need and to what's going on in the organization? How am I getting that visibility currently? And the second question I think is worth honestly asking for everyone, even if you don't suspect you're a micromanager, but is, I working at the right level?
Because, if you are, for example, you know, a manager of managers, but you're regularly kind of rummaging around your teams, like GitHub or just, you know, reviewing team or even individual engineer level things, that could be a good sign that you're working at the level that's not appropriate for your role. And that could be a good starting point to think about, well, maybe you're too much in the weeds.
Sly: That makes sense. Also, I really like your- the questions that you had earlier about like identifying, like asking the questions to ask your direct reports to identify whether you're a micromanager. That makes a lot of sense. You can't just ask them straight up because they'll probably just tell you no, because they don't want to upset you.
Lena: Yeah.
Sly: And then so, framing it like, do you have what you need? It almost feels like you're not even asking it, but you're literally, you're literally asking, I, am I micromanaging?
I just was like, that's so, that's so like, like sly, literally. And like, just, it was good. It was good stuff.
Lena: Thank you.
Sly: Okay. I'm going to move on to some of the takeaway questions now. And the first one is, what do you do when someone gives you feedback that you're micromanaging them?
Lena: I think that's always a really interesting situation because what a lot of leaders and managers tend to do is basically get defensive. And because they don't want to micromanage, they don't want to be seen as a micromanager. Again, it's something really negative. And so what tends to happen is, at least with some people I've worked with, is they get into basically a debate with like, no, I'm not trying to micromanaging you. And then the person says, yeah, but you are. And then it's, you know, it gets into specific examples and whatnot. That kind of whole thing, not helpful, probably unsurprisingly.
What I really recommend is if someone tells you, hey, you're micromanaging me, get out of my business, literally. Take it as information and try and understand it.
If you may have noticed defensive tendencies in you or think, again, no, I'm not doing that. It's not who I am, what I'm about. Really try and understand what they’re thinking.
Don't argue it, but ask- put your, I always call this sort put your investigative journalism head on where you really just, you're here to ask questions. Like, what does that mean to you? What is micromanagement to you? Can you give me some examples of situations? How would you prefer to work together? What would that look like to you? And try and not just talk about, you know, whatever autonomy or being able to work independently or not. But try and make it concrete because like micromanagement kind of discussions or tension about that doesn't happen at the level where, you know, you think that your direct reports shouldn't be sort of having ownership of their work or be autonomous or whatnot. I'm sure you agree to that and I'm sure the person you're working with also agrees to that.
Like that's not the breaking point. The breaking point is probably that you asked them two weeks ago for a very specific, very specific progress information on a project that they're running right now. Or you happened to see a comment that they made and you had some concerns about the work that was being done in there. So those kinds of very granular situations are really interesting to talk about. And then use that as a starting point.
I would honestly, even in the first conversation where someone brings this up to you, it might even be worth not even going into details, but just thanking them for the feedback and thank you that really appreciate it. I'll think about it and then stop there. Then actually think about it and have a follow-up conversation about it, but don't try and resolve it in the moment.
One thing that can be then useful to talk about is if you basically like with any other feedback, if this person is perceiving that you're micromanaging, but that's not your intention, like that kind of perception breakdown is of course like a classic feedback situation. So then, you know, think about what were your intentions. You may also then in a follow-up conversation, be able to talk about that with them. And then you can problem solve together. You know, you can say, you know, my intention was to understand a bit better where our project is at, because I'm getting a lot of pressure from my own boss. How can we work together in the future to make sure that you don't feel micromanaged, but I have a bit of better visibility into where things are at?
For example, then you can talk about this with the person you're working with and then focus on the goal, for example, better visibility on a weekly basis, for example, and they can contribute and work with you on this in terms of how you want to solve that in the future. I think that's usually a really good approach because ultimately it's really worth the conversation.
Sly: Yeah, that makes sense. One of your points was interesting about sometimes there are times where you'll see something and you will have to kind of ask about it. Like you said. like someone makes a comment or maybe it's been two weeks since, you know, they said that they would have it delivered to you. So like on that train of thought, could micromanagement be useful sometimes? Is it always a bad thing?
Lena: I honestly think it's not. Of course, like micromanagement has a really bad rep and you shouldn't be stepping on your people's toes. But many managers are hyper-conscious of not wanting to micromanage to the point where they overcompensate. you know, like the example you just gave, just don't even want to ask about updates when it might actually be really, really important to have those. And a lot of managers really even mix it up with it not asking people for things or not wanting to ask for too much to the point of not even setting expectations clearly.
Like on estate, like I mentioned earlier, like I used to do at some point as well, because they don't want to come across as overbearing.
I do think there's a spectrum between sort of YOLO, and people do whatever on the one hand. Versus on the other side of it. Why do you even have employees when you're doing everything yourself anyway, or you know everything better anyway?
What I like to do is, I do think there are situations where sometimes you need to quote-unquote micromanage. In the sense of like manage someone more, be more in touch, have much more visibility than you usually might.
Like for example, when you're onboarding a new person, like that person's just joining your team or your company, or when someone is moving into a new role, when someone's moving into new area of work. It can also be really useful with new leaders who are just, you know, again, like experiencing a new type of work. It's like in those kinds of situations, it can actually be really, really helpful to work closely with your manager, because then, you can take maybe you even meet daily or you have a daily short exchange and they check in with you regularly, give you information about like, you know, even in a high stake project, for example, it can also be super valuable.
It's like, think those are cases where the bad rep that micromanagement has can really get in the way because ultimately what it is about in those situations is that you build alignment. For example, when you have a new leader who just joined your team, if you meet with them maybe twice, three times a week, or even again daily, or you get a daily update real quick, like what's important, what's going on, that can really be so valuable because it allows you to build alignment really quickly, build trust.
Ironically, with that, it usually enables autonomy and much faster because if you work closely for two weeks, four weeks, whatever, and then you realize, hey, okay, we're fine now, things are going in the right direction, we have what we need from each other. Tey can do their thing and they will keep you in the loop. Working really closely with someone can be a super useful tool.
The one thing that I will say though is be transparent about it. What I like to do is in those kinds of situations when I feel that, hey, we have this high-stakes deliverable coming up with a really tight deadline or there's this new person who I want to work with quite closely because I want to make sure we're on the same page. Tell them. Like I say, you know what? I would like to work with you really, really closely for the next couple of weeks. That's usually not my style. I do want everyone I work with to be able to work autonomously, as autonomously as possible. But I would like to make sure that we are on the same page first. Here is the mode of us working together that I thought of, you for example, for the next four weeks. I would like to have a daily check-in for us or would like to get a daily update from you.
The main purpose of this is for us to be on the same page, to make sure that things are going well, also to make sure that I can respond very quickly if there's anything that you need. And then let's reevaluate over this time and see how that's going. Maybe we can even just stop that mode much sooner already. And then ideally after four weeks or maybe even sooner, we can shift that mode to the way that I usually work together is where I get an update from everyone I work with once a week. We make sure we are on the same page and that's it.
And then ask me, does that work for you? How do you feel about that? And I like to even tell people, you know, like that it might feel like micromanagement because it kind of is. But as you may have picked out, I try and be very intentional about sharing my intentions. Here are the goals that I'm pursuing, the alignment, building trust, and all that. Also mentioning that that's not how I usually work and helping people understand how I usually like to work together and then also setting an end date to it or at least periods evaluating that. I'll usually then also check in in the weekly one-on-one, ask how's that going for you? Here's how it's going for me.
And therefore, yes, have a sort of much tighter collaboration mode than I usually might, but make it very clear what the purpose of that is.
Sly: So it sounds like communication is a really important part of that. Yeah.
Lena: Again, unfortunately. Yes. Yes. Yes. And, and I think like sharing intentions and I think even in other cases where, you know, when a project is going sideways and I have to jump in, I tell people and say, listen, you know, here are the issues that I've seen. Usually the people I work with on those things are also aware of that already. Like here's what I've seen. I would like to get more frequent updates from you going forward because there's a lot of visibility on this or because I honestly, like sometimes I also struggle with communicating an expectation very clearly. And then I also own up to that and say, listen for the next week and let's please check in regularly because I can't entirely figure out yet in the abstract, what I will need from you. Can we do that and just, you know, try and figure it out together?
And people are usually then open to collaborating this way. I think a big part is always that, like, this is not the forever mode. Because I really like, I don't want updates from everyone I work with every single day. I don't like, no one has time for that, including me.
But that kind of sort of, I'll call it intentional micromanagement can be a really useful tool if it's done with the right context.
Sly: If it's done with awareness, it sounds like being aware that you're doing it and letting everyone else know that you're aware.
Lena: Yeah, exactly. And that's our episode today. Thank you so much to our guest Claire.
Lena: Leadership Confidential was created, produced, and presented by me, Lena Reinhard. Our guest's voice was digitally modified.
Theme, original composition, and mixing by Esteban Del Pino.
Production assistance, bonus host, guest support, and social media by Sly Stark.
Cat support by Peaches.
Thank you for listening. And we'll hear you next time.
Sly: My God, one second. My cat is... Peaches! Why are you… Are you chewing on the cord because you want my attention? Don't chew on a cord because you want my attention! No, I hate that.
She always chews on chords when she wants me to pay attention to her because she knows that she isn't suppose to chew on electrical chords.
Lena: Also, that is 100% going into the post-production section because that was all audible.
Sly: Oh gosh. The end of every episode with me in it is just me talking about my cat.
